Hydrogenated vegetable oil or butter?

Daniel, you had it right the first time, sagebrush was the one confused with his terminology. Palm oil is a mixture of many fats, and most of them are saturated. In its natural state it is quite like the hyrdogenated oil that were commercially produced. Studies have shown it raises chloresterol just like saturated animal fat and transfat. Nasty is not a technical term, so I'm not sure what you are trying to convey. There is rain forest destruction to produce palm plantations. Large dairy farms to produce butter also takes its toll on the environment. The hydrogenated oils were likely better for the environment, but because of confusion in human metabolic pathways slightly worse for people. The most commonly used hydrogenated oil, was a monosaturated one that had the same chemical formula as the main fat in olive oil. They originally thought because it was an issomer of a healthy fat, it would be more healthy than butter fat. They were wrong. Since these fats were used in mostly unhealthy fast food and commercial baked goods, it gave a turbocharged health whammy. Those that ate little of these products probably did not suffer ill effects.

This is not quite true. The manufacturer does this for 2 reasons that the consumers seem to like. It adds shelf life, reducing spoilage and waste. It allows the oil to mix and stay mixed with the solids for ease of use and texture. None of it has high levels of transfat. peanut butter naturally has a mix of saturated and unsaturated fat. Adding a little palm oil doesn't change it much.

Crisco was the big engineered food. This was processed to cook better than butter or lard but be more healthy. This was supposed to be a good thing for vegans or others that had dietary practices like halal or kosher. They had the science wrong. With this thread I looked up crisco, and they changed it in 2007 to greatly reduce the transfat. The new formula has about 6% transfat which is now close to the levels in butter which is 1%-4%. It is used in many processed foods that are unhealthy by themselves, but now it should be healthier than butter or lard in these same products.

It sounds lke you have very good practices. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I worked with a nutritionist to lower my chloresterol, and actually eat more fat, but different food combinations. A friend who has worse genetics than me greatly lowered his on engine 2 diet, but that thing was just two extreme for me. He's 30, and I'm curious to see if at a later age his shoots back up like his parents. Egg yolks keep changing, they have good and bad things in them, I eat a limited number.

Natural fats are not necessarily more healthy than processed food fasts, its the fact that you eat less of the unhealthy ones and get the other nutrition from whole foods. I mentioned the masai earlier, and they drink a quart of milk a day, but exercise a great deal and eat herbs that help protect them.

 

AG said

So far as I understand, the problem with industry made hydrogenated triglycerides (TG) was production of trans fat. Naturally occurring saturated or mono saturated (one double bond) fats are very low to no trans fat, and thus are far healthier alternatives.

While palm or coconut oils are less healthy than olive oil, I think it is a mistake to say the first two are equivalent to cholesterol as "bad" fats. Far from it, IIRC. I'll have to read up a bit to be sure, and I look forward to any well referenced links you may provide.

Anecdotally, one problem with vegetable oils might be the tendency to reuse them in cultures that deep fry a lot of food. I suspect that would be home brew industrial strength trans fat.

 

I'm not acutely aware of Masai farming practices, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that their milk is more healthful than ours. Unless they've got growth hormones and antibiotics in their cattle feed, too, it's probably not just the exercise.

 

The cattle are mainly grassfed, but their is some corn feeding. The masai themselves were moved and no longer had as much land to ranch, since then carbs, mainly corn, has been added to the diet. The ranchers eat different plants and exercise a great deal more. The farmers and urban masai are more sedentary but eat similar amounts of corn and milk. The ranchers have much lower levels of cholesterol drinking similar milk. People of european desent in the area eat a different diet and have a higher cholesterol level. There are lots of study since this is an interesting population group when it comes to saturated fat.

There is definitely no need to use a process that creates transfats. I'm sure that tropical oils or saturated animal fats are also fine in small quantities. It doesn't appear that tropical oils are a healthy substitute though.

The Straight Dope: Why is palm oil bad for you?
Palm Oil Not A Healthy Substitute For Trans Fats, Study Finds

The heat from deep frying denatures some of the healthy Essential fatty Acids(EFAs). Deep fryers are not made out of catalytic material, so oil conversion to trans form is unlikely. Transfats were used here because it was less expensive than other healthier oils. IIRC most fast food deep frying has changed to healthier oils but it still does not make the food healthy

 

Not so fast ..
Food & Nutrition Information

Asia Pacific J Clin Nutr (1997) 6(1): 12-16
Modulation of human lipids and lipoproteins by dietary palm oil and palm olein: a review
Kalyana Sundram
Palm Oil Research Institute of Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Executive summary:
Minimize trans fat and cholesterol;
Do not sweat the rest, so long as they are eaten in moderation; focus instead on exercise and weight.

Addendum: I really should obtain a detailed lipid profile on myself. I think it likely I am a heterozygote for dyslipidemia that includes low HDL, but my cholesterol intake is close to zero, and my oil diet is about 70% olive oil and 30% coconut milk, supplemented by daily Niacin. I'd like to think I offset a less than optimal gene profile with a smart lifestyle.

 

...looking in the fridge, looks like we have a choice of palm oil or partially hydrog. soybean oil or fully hydrog. soybean oil as hardeners. Think I'd rather go with untreated palm oil even though it is highly saturated fat. Looks like they try to keep trans fat below 0.5 so they can say zero. Looks like they try to keep saturated fats below 0.5 to 1%.

 

Those Massai that live the traditional tribal lifestyle (I know nothing of those who have moved to urban centers) are extremely thin. That alone reduces heart disease considerably. They probably get a lot of exercise. Their cows are thin also (at least those I saw), probably because of their diet high in grass. I don't know anything about their use of corn either for themselves or their cows. They also bleed the cows and drink the bood. They very seldom eat meat. Probably only when a cow is too old to keep.

My philosophy is to try to eat "real" food. I am far from perfect and sometimes eat junk foods, but I try to keep those to a minimum, and there are lots of junk foods I never touch. I also do not eat meat or fowl, though I do eat fish. "Real" food, to me, means unprocessed, or processed minimally, or in benign ways, such as grinding grain into flour, rolling oats into oatmeal, cooking at home. Lots of veggies, fruits, whole grains. Mostly I eat these things because they taste better to me. I don't like the taste of white bread, and I like air-popped popcorn with nutritional yeast better than chips; tortilla chips better than potato chips. I love veggies. In a few minutes I am going to cook up a head of broccoli as my afternoon snack, with soy sauce on it instead of butter. Maybe I'll have tofu and dry whole-grain toast. I know most of you will say "Yuck!" but I love it.

I exercise and try to eat a healthy diet not to live longer, but to be healthier while I live. Being able to walk up stairs or mountainsides is just FUN.

All fat is high in calories. Most of the fats you'll get on a vegetarian + non-fat dairy + fish diet are healthy, if you avoid junk foods.

 

That'd be a good idea. I know my cholesterol isn't good all around. Actually, the LDL might be "OK", but my trigs measure over 400 without anything to keep it under control. The fenofibrate (generic subs for Trilipix) raised my creatinine levels, and now they switched me to Lipitor. I don't have the greatest diet, but it could definitely be worse. I tried Niaspan (high does niacin, I believe) but had all sorts of side effects.

That said, I do prefer butter, but tend to use margarine. I use mostly olive oil if it's for cooking, but a large container lasts me easily a year.

 

I was just trying to provide you with the latest information, which is simply substituting palm oil for trans fat laced hydrogenated soybean oil leads to the same increased cholesterol. That was a 2009 study, that was supported by the older research. This study was 1997, and says that palm oil doesn't raise cholesterol as much in people that don't have high chloresterol already Most research is based on people with heart disease risk factors. If you have these risk factors palm oil may increase them. I definitely am not saying there is anything wrong with it in small doeses. I'm not a doctor or nutritionist, but I have heavy risk factors - and keep up with research. Moderation is always a good idea.

Why are you taking niacin without blood work? If 30% coconut milk for fat means it is around 10% of your calories that is not in moderation. Why no no nuts, avocados, or flax, or if your not a vegetarian cold water fish for your

Well fully hydogenated soybean oil is also saturated fat It sounds like that should label transfat in tenths of grams. They seem to think 2 grams a day are safe

 

Yea ... I kinda knew the answer already ... just it's fun to bring 'exercise' to folk's attention ... because strenuous exercise is the great equalizer for consuming sugar and or fats. I liked the way evnut put it, the most.

 

I started Niacin after I received an HDL result a couple years ago of 38 and LDL of 140.

I may have overestimated my coconut milk fraction of total fat intake. We eat Thai curry at least twice a week. Most other meals have olive oil -- either from frying and/or in salads that are part of every breakfast and most meals later in the day.

No fish, eggs, or meat, but I probably eat 2 - 5 portions of white cheeses (Lebene, feta, blue cheese, goat cheese) a week. Lots of avocados when they are season, 2 - 5 portions of Tahina a week (sesame seeds), and I am known to occasionally live on cashews for a couple days at a time .

Like Daniel, the cornerstone of my diet is in general to stay away from junk food, meaning processed, fast food, and candy.

 

Snarfed from UptoDate, a well respected general Internal Medicine textbook:


Guidelines from the National Cholesterol Education Program Expert Panel (Adult Treatment Panel, or ATP III) have begun to recognize the distinction between types of fat intake [89]. Instead of the previous admonition that calories from fat should not exceed 30 percent of total energy intake, they now recommend a range of 25 to 35 percent (table 3).

Similarly, the 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends that, for adults, between 20 and 35 percent of energy should come from fat [90]. Among 4 to 18 year-olds, the recommendation is 25 to 35 percent, and 30 to 40 percent for children less than 4 years of age. These guidelines also recognize the importance of type of fat, as reflected in the following advice:

Consume less than 10 percent of calories from saturated fatty acids by replacing them with monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids.
Consume less than 300 mg/day of dietary cholesterol.
Keep trans fatty acid consumption as low as possible by limiting foods that contain synthetic sources of trans fats, such as partially hydrogenated oils, and by limiting other solid fats.
Reduce the intake of calories from solid fats and added sugars.
Replace protein foods that are higher in solid fats with choices that are lower in solid fats and calories and/or are sources of oils.
Use oils to replace solid fats where possible.

------
Daily Calories are 1600 to 1900 for most people,
and a gram of fat is 7 Calories.

Again from UpTodate:

Ref 43 is
Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease.
Siri-Tarino PW, Sun Q, Hu FB, Krauss RM
Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 Mar;91(3):535-46. Epub 2010 Jan 13.

BACKGROUND: A reduction in dietary saturated fat has generally been thought to improve cardiovascular health.
OBJECTIVE: The objective of this meta-analysis was to summarize the evidence related to the association of dietary saturated fat with risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, and cardiovascular disease (CVD; CHD inclusive of stroke) in prospective epidemiologic studies.
DESIGN: Twenty-one studies identified by searching MEDLINE and EMBASE databases and secondary referencing qualified for inclusion in this study. A random-effects model was used to derive composite relative risk estimates for CHD, stroke, and CVD.
RESULTS: During 5-23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. The pooled relative risk estimates that compared extreme quantiles of saturated fat intake were 1.07 (95% CI: 0.96, 1.19; P = 0.22) for CHD, 0.81 (95% CI: 0.62, 1.05; P = 0.11) for stroke, and 1.00 (95% CI: 0.89, 1.11; P = 0.95) for CVD. Consideration of age, sex, and study quality did not change the results.
CONCLUSIONS: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
ADChildren's Hospital, Oakland Research Institute Oakland, CA, USA.

 

That does sound more moderate I hope your blood tests turn out well.

That sounds like good advice. Just a minor correction. Fat is 9 Calories per gram. USDA gives a range of 1600-3000 for healthy caloric intake. Caloric needs vary greatly.

 

Yep, 9 Cal / gram for fat.
Caloric requirements above 1900 a day imply a lot of exercise if the person is slim.

 

evnut says many good things, and he certainly knows exercise. But you'll have to remind me what he said that you're thinking about here...

 

lol. Its the USDA not me. Normal heathy working men here need a lot more. It all depends on your metabolism. Those masai men eat around 3000 calories a day and are thin.

Then there are athletes that eat many more times that
The Michael Phelps Diet: Don’t Try It at Home - Health Blog - WSJ

A friend that was a gymnast only ate 600/day in collage. Lots of variation out there.

 

Come with me to the old "All You Can Eat" Buffet on any given night, and see if you don't realize a lot of the problem is over consumption.

It may not be the only part, but over consumption is a very big part of the problem in the American Diet.

I've traveled abroad and noticed that the dietary habits of other countries don't include the gigantic portions most Americans take for granted.

I mean quite simply, who ever needs to eat a Hamburger with 3- 1/4lb patties?

No, I'm sorry, you can't convince me over consumption isn't key.

 

oh ... in the post above he said something like the reason most people have 'issues' if they eat like Eskimos (used to) is because (as a nation) we only get up from the couch to get another hand full of skittles.

.

 

lol I agree with most of the sentiment, but americans are the only fat ones. Have you ever been to a steak house in Argentina? Portions are huge. Obesity rate is also almost as high as america. Have you ever seen a skinny samoan? I haven't, but I'm sure some must exist. Obesity on many pacific island nations are higher than here. The world's fatest man, is bed bound in London. Obesity in China is on a fast rise.

Its easier to just bring the whole bag to the couch Walking to the fridge is too much exercise.

 

Think of it like a bank account. If you deposit more than you withdraw, your savings grow. With calories, most of us should be aiming for a deficit.

Given the activity level, an athlete's diet of 12,000 calories a day is not at all unreasonable. I've known competitive cyclists to eat more in a day than most people eat in a week. There was a time in my life that I'd eat a large pizza for lunch, an afternoon snack before a large dinner, and still be hungry again before bed. Of course, I was riding my bike up and down mountains for most of the day...I've cut out the bedtime snacks now, and I make healthier food choices than pizza. My metabolism seems to be slowing down for some strange reason.