Pascal's wager

^ I was making an observation that apparently I share with Daniel.

People are sociable and occasionally do good things, but it tends to get overwhelmed by the bad things that are done. The most obvious example is nearly every recorded year of human existence there has been a war (sometimes called a "conflict") Then there is rape, murder, racism, a boatload of all kinds of dangerous driving on the PC on-topic threads, dishonest companies/employees, weapons of mass destruction and rogue state reckless enough that might use them, people in denial our Earth's environment is fragile. Both of us have started threads on human failings not limited to the ones just listed.

 

Cite please...

Based on what metric?

 

And exactly what science experiments validates this for every case in the universe? With your opening post being driven by logic, where is the logic in this statement?

Let's move to a much simpler question. When I claim I had a dream about a flying blue dog, what techniques do scientist have to figure out if I'm telling the truth or not? As the person that experienced it, I know the truth. How would an outsider?

Now I am not taking a side, and definitely not trying to support a counterpoint. But what you have is a hypothesis, not established knowledge. How do you prove this is an hallucination? How do you prove it is not a hallucination?

 

How about health, wealth, and dying peacefully instead of getting murdered. You guys must live in a dungeon. Bust those shackles and get out there and see what's going on!

These have been posted here in PC before ---


Steven Pinker on the myth of violence | Video on TED.com


--- and a classic:

 

How dare you question Daniel the Oracle!

 

These logic propositions drive me nuts. The discussion starts based on understandable logic premises, but then takes a quick exit out of logic at the end. "only means" is not hermetic, as you infer.

 

No one else saw it.

But let's assume it WASN'T hallucination, it was some external phenomenon only visible to one person for god knows what reasons, it STILL isn't proof that it was God that was seen.

You gotta ask, how would you recognize a god? Some apparition that conforms to your preconception of what a god would look like? That wouldn't prove anything, although it would strongly suggest imagination driven hallucination more than any other visual stimuli, especially since no one else can see it.

 

These points are supportable, especially since the opinion "strongly suggest" replaces the logical qualifier "only means".

Let me be clear here, I am not discussing what a person saw, or God, or what the NDE mechanism is. I am reiterating the standard point that Absence of Proof is not Proof of Absence. A very critical point if logic is the basis of the discussion.

 

Fair enough. The other applicable axioms are "the burden of proof lies with those making the claim", "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and "what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof".

I've seen blue dogs do amazing things, but flying isn't one of them. Show me.

 

I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a fellow human being can ever explain, to me, the existence of a God, or his/hers vision of what a God might or should be.

Seriously, we have only a very small understanding of our place within our own solar system, hell, our own planet for that matter. And somehow I'm supposed to accept it on faith alone what my "end game" will be. It's absurd!

 

Well you are in good company here.

Have you ever really listen to any fellow human being explain their God?

Welcome to FHOP BTW.

 

Well since this is Fred'shouse and others talked about some probabilities. just for fun I'll toss in my reinterpretation of Pasal's wager. I know its long but think of this is a monster stack of pancakes..

THE ODDS

I've studied math sublime
and understand the odds
there never is a time
to bet against the gods

Let P stand for the chance,
the Probability,
that life 's more than a dance
of neuro-chemistry

Let S stand for the gain
of living as we please
of showing no refrain
of sailing with the breeze

Let T be the time frame
we have to live life free.
The payoff of this game?
(1 minus P) S T

If god does not exist
then what is there to gain?
What pleasure have we missed
that causes no one pain?

The max that this could be,
if god exists or not
is simply S times T.
So what 's the other lot?

If we would choose to seek
our pleasure at all cost
we ought to take a peak
at we may have lost

Some say the cost is hell
with torture, fire and pain
others say that we'll dwell
as bugs in life's refrain

The outlook 's poor at best
but how long will it last?
It might be worth a test
if it is over fast.

Religions old and new
grant god eternity.
From Christian, Islam, Jew,
through Aborigine

Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu,
all share a common theme
restraint in what we do
pays in the endless scheme

Even if you think that P
is small as small can be
Infinity times P
is still infinity

If life is eternal
then there is much to win
If hell is infernal
there is quite a price for sin

If you bet we've just one shot,
that most religion 's wrong,
one life is all we've got
which isn't very long

If your life long plan
is totally carefree
If you bet that human
is all we'll ever be

If you demand hard proof
If you thing faith 's all wet
If you think god 's aloof
and science is your bet

The bets had better be
with total certainty.
Infinity times P
is still infinity

Do the details differ
in how to find one's way?
To whom should we refer
for what god has to say?

The answer to this quest
depends on what you read.
And billions will attest
their's is "the god" to heed.

If one region 's right
and all the others wrong
then most will face a fright
when death does come along

Could God be oddly cruel
to condemn most mankind?
Or is that just a tool
of man's controlling mind?

If god is fair and just,
he cannot punish those
who placed eternal trust
in faiths that billions chose.

A faith that says you must
convert or go to hell
betrays eternal trust
their worldly power to sell

Throughout history we have failed
with Churches left and right
Our "jihads" have derailed
the search for truth and light

But if you say THEIR wrong
be careful how you flame
even if the proof is strong
judgment 's a risky game

The proof had better be
with total certainty.
Infinity times P
is still infinity

 

I acknowledge that in the developed world lifespans have gone from 25 to 80 years, there's phones, cars, computers, internet, HVAC, etc. There's also at least a billion that have no access to clean water, a billion (?) that live on a dollar a day.

We have too many people that act on their urge to kill, slaughtering either their family, former workers, civilian Afghans, or perfect strangers. And for everyone that kills, there are many more that while they don't kill, seriously thought about it, if just for a moment such as road rage.

If humankind is basically good, why are we concerned about several ways we could kill ourselves...nuclear war or killing our environment among them? Is being worried about that having my head in the sand?

 

Check the story again. The comment about "all my work is rubbish" or whatever was made later in the day, hours after the NDE. It was not a dying declaration.

 

From that wiki article:
"The declarant’s statement must relate to the cause or circumstances of what he believed to be his impending death." [my emphasis]

In other words, his statement about seeing God is only admissible if he is accusing God of murdering him.

Which is an interesting point, come to that.

 

I have a question for those who think people experience near death experiences are seeing God. Is God manifesting himself to them? Or he just 'there' to be seen?

 

Most animals are getting ample amounts to eat every day. Most have more free time than Humans allow themselves. We all end up as someone else's dinner, but if you can figure out a way to run a universe with life in it that does not include that, I am all ears.

 

I guess we don't agree on that point after all.

Reason I thought you would think humans are basically bad, Daniel is you emphasized people lie all the time - lie a lot. That's not merely a mistake but a serious character flaw. Yes, people occasionally do good things, sometimes very noble acts.

Again, if humankind is not basically bad, why are we concerned that there are several ways we could exterminate ourselfs?

 

A J Ayers thought he was dying.