Does anybody else think the PiP is overpriced ???

If that's your way of measurement, buy the Volt.

During the development of PHV (first prototype hit the road in 2008), Toyota realized that the smaller battery pack has the advantage. Prius has always been about following the data and challenging the conventional wisdom. The benefit of a smaller battery is counter-intuitive for sure. It is hard to grasp. If that's what the data showed, we'll see it in the results.

As previously posted, Prius PHV owners are getting electricity efficiency better than EV1 and gas mileage 55 to 57 MPG.

That's 64 to 72 MPGe (18% to 36% EV mile ratio) for a family midsize plugin. The compact Volt averages 63 MPGe (71% EV mile ratio). This is just the initial data for Prius PHV so keep that in mind. I think it is better to look at the results, not the size of the battery pack.

 

About 300 lbs more than Prius. OP gave up ground clearance as well.

The standard features in Prius II and PHV are not comparable. It would be an "upgrade" rather than "downgrade" like the last time.

 

First the MPG you are claiming is NOT what the car reports.
With respect to MPG for those posts all you can conclude is 41 < MPG < 55 (what you call 55) and 48 < MPG < 57 for what you call 57) This is because the car truncates (not even rounds) for the gas display.


Your reference for the EV1 was a non-standard test and I've not look deeply into what they did, but it was a 3+ year old car..

The official ratings (http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/genmot.pdf)
Range per SAE J1634: 78.2 miles (which is the urban cycle)
Efficiency: 164 Wh/mile


And reporting 1-2 people is not that meaningful. Others here have reported lower numbers already. Here is my driving from monday



That was mostly urban driving, average speed (from OBD) 35mph.
Should I conclude the Volt is doing 250wh/mi ? (EPA says 360wh/mi)
Should I conclude it is more efficient than the EV1?


How much is the driver and how much is the car?


I'm very glad to see the Prius PHV is performing well for these folks, but others are not getting that same level of performance. Claiming its better on small samples of non-uniform data is pointless.

:focus:

Back to the topic. The PiP is only overpriced, like the Volt is only overpriced, if one measures value as TCO. The Volt is NOT like a cruze in ride, fit, quietness. TCO is not how a BMW is "valued/priced", and I don't think the Volt is over priced for that reason.. its value to me is worth it. The PiP is a big step for TCO, but how much is the advanced tech worth to those that like tech. How much is it worth to reduce oil consumption?

If its is overpriced to the OP, then it is. If there is not a large enough market for it at the current price Toyota has a room to bring it down, but why not get the early adopters to pay more.. its good business especially if supply will be limited this year.

 

Since day 1!
Although one of our members got $7k under sticker and the 7.5k rebate! for a Volt
That brings the price to about 30k, much more reasonable.
If they priced it that way from the get go I think many more people would consider the Volt !
However that drain the battery to zero volts thing and it kills the battery to the point it MUST BE REPLACED for 10k or there abouts! Now that's just stupid!
The PIP however does not suffer from that problem,and that is certainly a MAJOR point for the PIP! The circuitry to accomplish the battery saving system is worth the effort and money.
Plus it,s just a smart move!

Edit, SORRY, I was reading this story about the Tesla,,,,

Tesla Roadster
The story is that an owner let his Roadster die and left it uncharged for two months. The car then couldn’t be turned on or started, or re-charged. When the car was taken for repairs it was found that it would cost $40,000 to fix the vehicle.
It’s stated several times in the Roadster’s owner’s manual not to leave the vehicle discharged for an extended period of time. Specifically: “Situations may arise when in which you must leave your vehicle unplugged for an extended period of time. If this is the case, it is your responsibility to ensure that the battery does not become fully depleted.” Lastly, “Over-discharge can permanently damage the battery.” While it’s clear that owner negligence caused this damage, some blame can be put on the manufacturer to have more safety measures to protect the vehicle.

The volt is fine, bad bad, I must have been on drugs, oh wait I was....I stand humbled!

 

I must say - Wth are you talking about?

 

I like the PiP Li-Ion Battery.

They Li-ion last longer than NiMH. I wonder when we will see the NiMH battery fail significately?

Replacement of the NiMH battery can/should be factored in when we start talking decades.

 

It is hard to read, but I think he is saying if more people could score a deal that someone on these forums got (a Volt for $30k), more people would buy it.

The second part being he thinks the Volt drains the battery to 0%. If true, then yes that would greatly reduce the expected life cycles. However, this is untrue, and GM has protection limits just like Toyota does. The difference being there is speculation that GM's firmware will "extend" these protection limits as the capacity decreases to maintain EV range and use more of the pack, thereby exacerbating the problem while masking it at the same time until EV range cannot be sustained and then it starts going down. At this point, the pack will have major depth of discharge cycles and life will be greatly reduced.

 

No major EV, except the Tesla Roadster, suffers from draining the battery == damage problem. The Volt does not suffer from it, the leaf does not, the iMev does not, the Tesla S does not, etc..

 

And to be fair, you have to be very abusive to damage the Tesla Roadster. Selecting Sport mode to have high discharge rates, and then neglecting all the messages the car sends out saying "hey, I need juice... hey gimme juice..." sent directly to your cell phone/email inbox.

 

All cars with batteries will eventually fail if you fail to charge them in after a long enough time. The early Roadsters especially because of their (IMO overactive) battery thermal management were worse than later revisions. Later model Roadster still want to be plugged in (and set to storage mode) for long term storage - meaning months or more.

The LEAF - Nissan recommends that you charge it to 80% and check on it every 3 months. In real life users have found it's battery to hold charge very well. For some reason leaving it plugged in for long term storage seems to drain the 12V battery. For this reason most people leave it unplugged (the car will top the 12V battery off every week from the Lithium pack - if you have the SL and the car is in the sun the tiny solar panel will also put in a small amount of charge into the 12V battery).

The Volt - not sure, but I'm sure similar to the LEAF - charge it for a bit every 3 months or turn it on and the range extender should charge the battery if necessary.

The PiP - Toyota says not to store fully charged, but empty. I imagine you'll want to turn it on every 3 months or so as well.

The regular Prius - if you don't turn it on every so often the NiMH batteries WILL self discharge to a point of self destruction. Good idea to drive it every few months.

Lithium batteries generally have much lower self-discharge rates than NiMH batteries, so as long as there aren't any parasitic draws (like on the Roadster) on the Lithium pack you shouldn't have to worry. The LEAF, Volt and PiP essentially disconnect the main battery most or nearly all the time the car isn't on so parasitic loads should be minimal. The top-off or turn-on every 3 months is probably over kill for the LEAF, Volt, PiP.

 

I am not claiming nor cherry picking data. I am simply suggesting from the initial data and even put a caution note saying it'll become more accurate with more data. Your point is valid that people should not take this initial data as the absolute.

My point was, don't judge the book by it's cover. Wait until you see what Prius PHV can do (the result!) until you declare it as "overpriced".

 

I think your reasoning has a false choice fallacy (not that I argue with your choice )

You did not *have* to choose either staying with the RAV, or buying a Prius. You could have sold the RAV, and e.g. bought a Corolla. Or a 5 year old Corolla. Or ...

 

Another mostly irrelevant comparison:

Volt 42K/4 = 10,500 per seat
PiP 32K/5 = 6,400 per seat
Roadster 109K/2 = 54,500 per seat

Volt and Roadster are OVER priced.

Point is, one cannot get a valid comparison by ascribing the entire price to one feature. The price is for a car with many features.

 

I don't see PHEVs as being cost effective at much more than 40 mi EV range. Toyota has hit the bottom end of the range with the PiP - I think that 15-20 mi EV range on the EPA test results will be a sweet spot as with that amount of range you can really reduce gasoline consumption.

That's why the Prius C is going to be such a hit. I think it will hit sales volume that directly competes with the liftback. The 2nd gen PiP should be a much more appealing car - but don't expect to see one for another 2-3 years. We'll sooner see another plug-in in another body style (RAV4-EV?)

 

if you keep imaginging what might be coming down the road, you'll never move forward. i don't buy an automobile as an investment financially, but it is an investment in the technology and the future of the country. for financial investments, i weigh my options and go with the best return i am comfortible with. overpriced is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

people who bought the prius to save gas probably saved gas, but not money. it's not the most cost effective car to drive.

 

Just trying to clarify things, you said the Rav is a "big chunk of steel" but the PIP which weighs 195 pounds less isn't?