How to extend LIMITED SERVICE LIFE of Prius PHV traction battery.

Seeing how it appears few on PC grasped how frail the Prius traction pack is,I've decided it's necessary to start a new thread about the Prius' (and most other cars, for that matter) internal combustion engine. Look for the following title soon, on PC:

How to extend the LIMITED SERVICE LIFE of an ICE.

Yes people, if you don't change the oil ... the plugs ... etc etc etc ... the ICE won't last as long ... scary, eh? WHO KNEW !



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I keep saying, that's why a BEV is so much better than a gas car! (Well, it's one of many reasons.)

 

I just read the warranty guide and I am not happy with it. I just wrote to Toyota about this. Toyota warrants the Lithium Ion battery for 10 years/150,000 miles in California. Wonderful. But in the same booklet, Toyota states that they do not warrant gradual depletion of the Lithium Ion battery.

This is totally contradictory. Sure, if they state they won't warrant a 20% or 30% reduction, that's fine, but what about a 70% or 80% or 100% reduction in capacity? Isn't this the same as "failure"? If my PHV range is reduced from 15 miles to 11 or 8 over the life of the car, I can live with that, but if it falls to two miles and Toyota wants $10,000 to repair it, I'm going to be pretty upset.

We need a clarification of the policy from Toyota, which is what I requested from them.

 

Rebound

I suspect that Toyota is NOT contradictory. They are warranting the battery against factory defects just like the rest of the car. To the extent that Li Ion batteries naturally reduce in capacity, they are consumable items like tires and wiper blades. The suggestions for increasing battery life are consistent with the understanding that traction batteries are expensive. The fact that the PiP depends on smaller traction batteries than the Volt and the Leaf means that replacement will be less expensive. This is a major consideration in favor of the PiP since it is likely that many Li Ion traction batteries will need to be replaced in the life of cars which have them. Toyota states that its goal is for traction batteries to last the "life of the car". That goal may be realized for some or even many cars. The Li Ion batteries will not have the staying power of NiMH batteries. This turns out to be the price for the higher power density which means lighter weight for the delivered power.

Later generations of traction battery may be better.

We are taking a gamble as first adopters. With toyota's reputation, this gamble is probably lower than with other choices of cars.

After all the extent of that gamble is the total cost of the traction battery. It will probably not be $10,000. But, we don't know because it has not been announced. Any major component like a transmission or engine can be expensive to replace if it is not covered by warranty. It is very likely that the PiP will be drivable even without much all electric range, if it gets to that, so it is not like the car is likely to become useless.

It will be interesting to see if the reply adds to what is already stated in the manual.

 

Well, they can't warranty the thing for 150,000 miles and turn around and say that you wore it out in 3,000 miles, right?

 

I think we will find that they are saying "If you find a factory defect within 150,000 miles or 10 years which ever comes first, you are covered. Past that, you are on your own. If it is natural loss of battery power, you are on your own." But they also might say something like "our tests show that the traction battery should retain up to 80% of its original strength after 8 years of normal use" (what ever that means). The latter comment, if they say something like that, will not be a warranty. It will be something intended to ease our minds. Nissan said something like that for the Leaf.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see if they say anything different from what is in the owner's manual.

 

Why don't you post up the exact quote? I figured they would do something like this since 150k/10year isn't going to work at 80% capacity with the chosen components.

 

Allan has it spot-on. No auto manufacturer warrants their batteries against gradual loss of capacity. (The Volt warranty is a bit ambiguous, and some disagree with my reading of it, but I don't believe they do so either.)

In your example, if you can demonstrate that the loss of capacity is due to a defect in materials or workmanship, they'll fix it, for the time/distance period specified. If it's due to normal wear and tear, or abuse, they won't.

This is consistent with every car warranty, from every manufacturer.

The difference is that Toyota has a history of quality in both design and manufacture, and if their stated intention is that the battery last the life of the car, it probably will.

Also, the PiP is not an electric car, even though it can drive a short distance on electric power within certain power-demand and speed limits. An 80% reduction in battery capacity would still allow it to use its intended mode, which is blending.

Also, as Allan says, this is a very new technology. If you are not willing to take a chance, you should probably not buy the car for the first few years. After that, there will be a reliability history to judge from.

Toyota has done the right thing (unlike GM) in making it clear what is covered and what is not. GM has left it up to interpretation, which means that some buyers will think they are covered, but when the cases come up, their lawyers will point out that the warranty does not actually say that.

 

I don't know what the traction battery costs, but I doubt it's under $5,000. Setting aside the ambiguities for a moment, the bottom line is if these cars need a $5,000 service after a few years of use, the technology will not survive in the market. End of story.

 

Rebound

If you have not taken delivery, you can still cancel without obligation.

However, it is likely that most PiPs will be serviceable in eight years without a change of traction battery. It is likely that the most irritating issue with the traction battery will be at the time of resale after three years. PiPs with noticeably lower all electric range (and that may be most or even all PiPs) will have lower resale value. Those with replaced traction batteries will have "like original" all electric range, but at a cost to the selling owner. The riddle for the selling owner is that the "Blue Book" value may ASSUME a lower all electric range even if the battery has been replaced because the condition will be so common.

Perhaps the "Blue Book" will recognize cars with replaced batteries. That remains to be seen.

As a subnote, there is a thread on on the subject of the company established lease residual price for the PiP. That is the value which is expected for the car at the end of a three year lease and which is used in calculating lease payments. The "residual" may or or may not be set at what is expected to be the market value, but that certainly can be the basis for the "residual". The "residual" after three years posted by Toyota is roughly half of the original value of the PiP which is FAR lower than the resale value of the liftback Prius in three years. Perhaps Toyota's action contains useful information.

 

The prices will come down. Tesla is strongly indicates this by offering a $12K battery replacement program that can be pre-purchased for something that costs $40K today.

Extrapolating along those lines, a battery replacement after 10 years/150K miles might cost $1.5K-$2K which is not totally unreasonable. That would be around the price of a transmission rebuild/replacement.

 

Don't know about Toyota's costs but the GM replacement price (which I presume requires return of the old battery) is about 3K Here is the part's ordering page (though you have to be a GM dealer to actually order). Not saying that is what they cost GM, just what they are selling for in the repair/parts department.

GM Parts Department: Buy genuine GM auto parts & aftermarket accessories at wholesale prices.

 

Remember the 10yr/150k mi warranty is the Carb one for emission control equipment. As long as the emissions are in spec and the car runs, the battery is working. Even if you have zero EV range.

 

I'll be surprised if in a few years the PHEV battery warranties vis-a-vis CARB are not being challenged in court.
CARB is about emissions and since the EV range is part of the CD computation which is part of the overall emission computation I can see people using that as an argument that the warranty applies to maintaining at least most of the blended range.

Loosing range is really not that different than say a catalytic converter failing, a clogged secondary air-injector or O2 sensor failing. The car wold still run, but its emissions would then exceed the standard for that vehicle and would be covered.

 

Sure, no problem if it costs $2,000 after 10yr or 150K. No problem if EV range is 50% at 100K or 7 years. I think that's reasonable. But 50% after 40k miles or 3 years or a $4k repair at 150k is no good.

If I can choose between $2K for a stock replacement at 150k or $4k for a vastly better replacement, I'd probably take the $4k replacement, if the rest of the car is in good shape.

 

FWIW - "100%" on the LEAF is not really 100%. It's more like 94-95%. They let you discharge it to about 3%. Usable capacity is around 21 kWh but the pack could do about 24 kWh if fully charged/discharged.

They recommend that you charge it to 80% (long-life mode) for storage and daily use if possible (though many owners prefer to leave it around 50% if easily done).

They also recommend not storing the car in high temperatures, especially if fully charged.

Pretty much the same recommendations as the plug-in Prius.

 

We should have a sticky thread on this subject once we have a good summary of strategies for ensuring long life. Hopefully we'll be able to use a ScanGauge to help us best understand our battery condition.

 

The CAN VIEW was created for that and not all versions of the CAN VIEW. I don't know if Norm Dicks still offers those for sale. The Scan Gauge accesses the Can Bus, also, but is not programed to address codes relating to the traction battery. Most cars have only a 12v battery for starting the engine.

So far as it goes, the Scan Gauge is a fine tool, but it will not be useful for monitoring the traction battery in its present form.

 

And that's why this is not going to happen. The PiP is not going to need a new $5,000 battery every few years of use. Remember 2004, when all the naysayers were saying that the Prius was going to need a new $5,000 battery every few years? Remember what happened? Turned out the battery lasts the life of the car. When Toyota says that its goal is for the PiP battery to last the life of the car, my guess is that it will. Yes, the capacity will decline with age, but probably not more than cars tend to get worse fuel economy when they get old. Which is the only effect of reduced capacity in the PiP.

In the Leaf, reduced capacity means reduced range. In the PiP it means reduced fuel efficiency. It will happen. It won't be large. Especially since the electric component is already small, due to the (IMO) too-small battery to begin with.

 

Has anyone with higher mileage on their Plug-in Prius noticed any lowered capacity charge over time? I guess as long as it continues to deliver a decent blended mpg then that's probably the most important thing for the PiP. Do people just let it charge until it stops on its own or have drivers actually been watching how much goes in? The PiP won't actually charge to 100% right?