2012 Prius Plug-In Window Sticker

(I like the Leaf a lot, I wish it fit my driving, I respect the Volt as delivered. I own a Gen 2 Prius, so I am a fanboi)

My problem is that I do not drive like average people, I drive like me. From Greenwood MS I am going to at least one these towns every week day. (today was Charleston for one client, then Clarksdale for four, 150 miles)

Charleston MS 44 miles each way, Google maps
Cleveland MS 44 miles
Greenville MS 54 miles
Clarksdale MS 56 miles (Most common)
Marks MS 58 miles
Helena AR 85 miles
Tunica MS 91 miles each way, Google maps

Technically I only use less gas in my Prius than a Volt round trip to Helena or Tunica, but due to Premium, my Prius is cheaper than a Volt round trip to Greenville or Clarksdale. Any day I see two towns, I use less gas in the Prius than a Volt. My maximum per day is about 250 miles, that only leaves 3 hours of 'work'.

'Average' folks who commute to a known location could recharge the Volt, I can't. (I see my Xerox clients on average, once every 5 years) My wife's commute (to a known location) is 1.3 miles, so do not suggest I move.

(a PiP might be useful to me if I delay EV until I am in town. By the time I wear out this Prius, technology will have changed)

 

I think it is quite useful:

0.2 gallons takes the car 10 miles assuming HV mode efficiency
The other 90 miles requires 29 kwh electricity
Caveat: This is only applicable to whatever testing cycles EPA used.

so... pure electric miles consumption is 29000/90 = 322 wh/mile (wall-to-wheels)
Call it Ee, since everybody is now comfortable with MPGe

Compare that e.g. to 360 wh/mile for the Volt. I have to track down my old thread to see how I did in my guesses. I was certainly way off in electric range, but I think I was close in electric efficiency.

 

Help me out here peeps so that I (and we) understand PHV gas and electricity consumption.

First off, I don't get the '95 MPGe' gas + electricity rating. Many trips, you will use up the charge and be in hybrid (gas only) mode.

That said, isn't this what really matters .......

It's time to fill the gas tank and take a snapshot of total gas + electricity consumption ....

Log the total miles driven, total gallons pumped in and somehow log the total kWHrs* used over those total miles to end up with ..

*kWHrs from the electrical outlet (like the pump), not out of the car battery.

MPGs + MPKs (miles per kWHr)

or could be GP100M + KP100M

Isn't the above what matters ..... 'How much gas and electricity did you use during your total trip miles?

Will it be hard to track the kWHrs used during a tankful? Gage for that?

 

Read my post before yours, see if it helps you.

Sure, but the results are going to vary widely by trip length and charging routine, not to mention all the usual caveats that lead to ymmv results between drivers.

However ..
We know an electric mile consumes 322 wh* from the wall;
and we know a petrol mile consumes .02 gallons;
and we know a full battery took 3 kwh from the wall

So...
A full battery is 9.32 pure electric miles,
and additional miles are .02 gallons/mile of petrol until you recharge

Oh..
And sips of petrol when you stomp on the fuel pedal while battery charge remains, but that just defers the battery drain, and extends your blended range

*assuming you drive like the EPA test.

 

My bad, let me restate ....

What is the rate of gasoline and electricity consumption over the course of your total trip miles for this tank of gas.

MPGs and MPKs (or MPkWhrs)

 

I'm with what I think John1701 says ....

I drove x miles ...

how many gallons did I burn over the x miles ..

how many kWhrs did my car suck out of the outlet to assist in those x miles.

That's what makes sense to me at this point, or am I off?

 

cool 29 kwh/100m * 11m = 3.2 kwh from the wall. Toyota might have figured out how to use a larger SOC, or maybe rounding errors.

prius doesn't like short trips so you'll use more gas if your going 12 or 13 miles, but as an estimate if its less than 11 miles think of it as 0.29kwh/mi and don't worry about the gas. If its more than 11 miles its 3.2kwh + (miles -10)/50 gallons of gasoline. Divide miles in your trip by each if you want m/kwh and mpg or any other metric you want to use.

 

That one is easy, just tax the gasoline. Are you Americans really prepared for this?

 

so all this is cool but the thing that bothers me is…

note that QR code on the sticker? yeah, the URL it points to doesn't exist. and the EPA site still doesn't have the PHV data on it.

and somehow it's Toyota that's responsible for the delays in this? right-o.

 

Personnally what matters most is how many times I have to fill up with gas. Electricity consumption, I consider almost "free" since my goal is to limit my gasoline consumption and pollution. Besides it is too hard to track without a meter built into the car. I could use a Kill-O-Watt type of device at home, but not at the other places where I can recharge.

 

That is not all all what it means. It says the car would use .2 gallons + 29kw to do the 100 miles. They cannot be separated in to 10/90 or any other ratio. I'm guessing you are using .2 gallons for 10 miles because that is 50mpg (average)? But no test has computed the MPG for the small fraction of time (cold starts) in the CD mode testing, nor does it address the fact that the battery then was only working on the "easy" part of the 11miles. I don't see any way for you to separate them into a comparable wh/m, other than via conversion into the "efficiency" space of a combined MPGe of 95MPGe for the PiP, compared to 94MPGe for the Volt.


(My guess after the 95mpge was announced was .164 gallons and 30kwh/100m).. not too far off.

 

Better yet.. (since new taxes are despised), just stop the subsidies on gas.

Many Americans are not prepared, but then again they are not prepared for the current state of the world.

 

That's why arguing a $40k base price is basically futile, regardless of battery-capacity.
.

 

Really.. what power plants do you smell? Coal? NG? There is nothing to smell from either.

Are you sure you are not smelling oil refineries and/or petro-chemical plants? (Or maybe you smell the landfills?)

Checkout the map at the energy justice network
Energy Justice Map

Funny how a guy that used to say plugging in was a hassel and takes too long to charge is now recommending multiple-plugs in day.

NSTHA studies show 75% of miles driven are for local travel. Average daily drive is 29 miles but many are for tasks other than commuting (http://www.bts.gov/programs/national_household_travel_survey/daily_travel.html)


Long trips are 50mpg in a PiP vs 40mpg in a Volt. For people where they spend most of their trips > 80miles a day, the PiP is more efficient. For people that drive < 10, its more efficient. For people that can charge both at home and work, its 160 and 20. Still plenty of market for both. Different cars are better for different people.

 

Still in denial, eh?


Watch what happens with my daily 34-40 mile commute.
.

 

Yes, I extrapolated 10 miles of petrol driving per 100 miles based on 0.2 gallons of petrol consumed.

Another way to state this is that the PiP in CD mode will cover 90% of miles from battery energy if the route is ~ an EPA test cycle. If the drive cycle is easy -- of the sort that an attentive Prius driver would see 75 mpg in a Prius -- the PiP will go 14 miles before the ICE kicks in.

I know why you object to the method, but I think it will be very close to what a driver used to getting 50 mpg in a Prius will realize which is why I use it to calculate isolated EV consumption/mile. 'Easy' or 'hard' miles does not matter -- that is part and parcel of the EPA cycle; what matters is ICE efficiency and a drive cycle comparable to that used by the EPA.

MPGe is useless in answering the question of electric efficiency (wh/mile) in a car running in blended mode, because it is affected by battery capacity.

A test that I think would satisfy your objections would have a PiP and a Volt drive the same cycle, while both start from the same usable traction battery energy -- say 3 kwh. I say the PiP goes about 11% further than the Volt before the 3 kwh is depleted assuming no petrol use in either car.

 

Deyning what? That different cars are better for different people?

I'm sure a hypermiler will get a bit more than EPA, but if you regularly get 34-40 miles on EV, I'll be very surprised/impressed and will publicly admit I was wrong to question it.


My 34-40mile commute is all EV now, and in summer I get 40's-50's.
its highway and hills (800ft a day). I don't have to play games or plug in at work either. If you could do my commute on pure EV in a prius PHV, I'll be amazed.


Enjoy your Prius PHV.. I'm sure you will love it. As I said different cars for different folks.

 

Yep. The trick here though is to return the subsidies to the taxpayer.

And if that was not hard enough, imagine the political wrangling in deciding who gets the rebate: the poor guy with a truck that gets 12 mpg who already does not pay taxes, or the "rich" guy with a Prius shouldering a big tax burden. Make no mistake, fossil fuel subsidy *is* a redistribution of wealth scheme, just like a progressive tax code or more so.

I don't mind the redistribution much, I object to the unintended consequence of encouraging poor conservation behaviors.

 

John said

Well, if you are plugging in at work too, I figure 18.63 of the ~ 37 miles of it will be electric.

6 kwh
100 MPG

 

Generally, Volt will use less gas and Prius PHV will use less electricity. It really depends on the owner's commute pattern.

The real question is the owner's average difference of how many gallons and how many kWh of electricity.

In term of energy usage (aside politics), Prius PHV will use less energy despite being a midsize.