2012 Prius Plug-In Window Sticker

Sure it is.

The PiP is an EV until the juice runs low or driver demands more power than the electrons can muster. Then it's just like a regular Prius.

The Volt - we're only referring to EV mode here so for all intents and purposes it's an EV.

Anyway, all this quibbling is pointless.

The PiP is slightly more efficient than the Volt in EV mode, primarily because it weighs so much less than the Volt. ~600 lbs is a lot of weight to move. Toyota worked very hard to keep the weight down on the PiP - GM has fully admitted that the Volt is an overweight porker - they opted to get the Volt out to market sooner rather than spend more engineering time reducing weight. That part worked - the Volt has been on the market now for over a year. The PiP has just only reached dealerships.

The Volt/PiP/LEAF are basically the same in efficiency in EV mode - just as the MPGe numbers from the EPA suggest.

The big difference between the Volt/PiP is that undoubtedly in average driving, the PiP will burn gas more frequently than the Volt, and more of it.

Either way - I hope that both all plug-in manufacturers sell all the plug-ins they can make. No matter which one is chosen, it's a positive step in the right direction to reducing pollution and reducing our dependency on oil.

Look at the hysteria that the current run-up in gas prices is causing. Every vehicle that has a plug is well insulated from this volatility.

Running on gas - currently you've got 2 options - 100% gasoline or a bit of ethanol mixed in.

Running on electricity makes it easy to change fuel sources. Coal, natural gas, oil, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, biofuels. Any of these can be used to power your plug-in which insulates you from shortages in any specific energy source.

Isn't that a good thing?

If well-to-wheel "efficiency" was all that we cared about - then why even bother with plug-ins? See above.

"Efficiency" only matters when the original fuel source is the same. Look at a nuclear plant - it's "efficiency" is probably in the 30-40% range. Subtract 15% on the way to your plug-in and it's undoubtedly less efficient than a regular Prius. Your typical solar panel is about 15% efficient at turning sunlight to electricity. Subtract 5% to convert DC to AC and then another 15% to charge your plug-in and we're looking at 12% "efficiency". Wind is even worse.

But what energy source would you rather drive on? And isn't it nice to have the choice?

 

It sure is a good thing.

However, if a plugin hybrid becomes too EV bias and the gas mileage suffers at 37 MPG with premium gas, it is not a good thing. The battery pack becoming a family member always taking the rear middle seat is not a good thing. The weight of the car exceeding a SUV is not a good thing. When the price skyrocketd, it is not a good thing.

Everything needs to be balanced and Prius PHV is the best we've seen. Volt's composite vehicle efficiency figure is 60 MPGe. It looks like Prius PHV would get the same 60 MPGe, if not higher. That's just from vehicle efficiency point of view. If we take account of fuel efficiency as well, the midsize Prius PHV takes further lead.

 

In a car I prefer electric driving. The exeprience so far has been 3 laps indoors in Leaf and all the low speed stuff in Prius.

btw, here's Volt sticker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2012_Volt_EPA_windows_sticker.jpg

interesting both PiP and Volt are $1k annual fuel cost according to EPA. Seems that credits and HOV stickers will help motivate buyers.

 

Balance depends on what one weights as important. Foreign oil vs Domestic energy is more important to some than $$, an extra seat or even absolute well-to-wheels efficiency. If if carbon or efficiency is an issue the bigger battery allows one a different choice.. renewable energy sources. Both Prius PHV and Volt are well balanced for different criterion. Your criterion is just different.

What is the efficiency of wind energy?

 

The PiP is a very good compromise.

Is it the best compromise for all people? Far from it. But that's hard to see when you've got fanboi blinders on.

It depends on how you calculate it. One would probably want to measure the energy of the wind flowing through the turbine itself - I imagine it's pretty low but could be calculated knowing wind speed and turbine swept area.

But ultimately, all energy we use on this planet is derived from the sun. Wind is a result of energy from the sun. At most 5% of the sun's energy reaching the earth is converted to wind - only a tiny fraction of that will be captured by a wind turbine. Gasoline from oil comes from age-old algae buried underground - oil from algae from modern processes is in the low single digit in terms of efficiency.

All of which makes solar at ~15% efficiency look much more impressive!

This blog is quite informative regarding energy sources: Do the Math - Using physics and estimation to assess energy, growth, options - by Tom Murphy

 

We need to bother with the well-to-wheel efficiency especially because of the plugins that use both electricity (from various sources) and gasoline. We don't want to fall into the "zero emission" hoax and we need to look beyond tailpipe emission. Fueleconomy.gov created a calculator just for that.

It depends on a number of criteria. EV purist mindset ignores several of the criteria. Choices are good but the combination of the best set of criteria is ideal.

• Carbon emission
• Refueling speed
• Energy density
• Lower Weight
• Cost of fuel
• Cost of the vehicle

With the current state of battery technology, EV is best suitable for lower speed city miles while gasoline (HV) is best suited for high power, highway long distance miles.

That's what Prius PHV was designed for and that "rule" may not be true for everyone's commute. So Toyota included the EV<->HV button for the owners to control.

 

Funny your list is missing 3 of the things that are highest on my list
*Stopping putting our soldiers in harms way defending oil interests
*Support the US economy via purchase of domestic fuel/products
*Owning a car I want to drive.

And have 3 three things I don't give a darn about
*Refueling speed
*Energy density
*Lower Weight


So how many soliders lives per Gallon are you willing to trade?
What impact on the economy is it worth?

So clearly your optimizing for something different. No wonder you like the prius -- your priorities are off.

 

What do you folks think of the Fuel Economy site for energy and emissions ratings of cars?

PiP is not up yet, but here's their data on Prius c -

Compare Side-by-Side

 

Yup, totally agree. Foreign vs Domestic energy is a good criteria. However, it means little for both already efficient plugins, especially when gasoline is about 50% domestic.

I think Prius PHV's main bullet points are the size, price, shorter refuel time and track record.

 

Ok, cool it. I am starting to see this coming down to personal attacks.

 

The interesting thing to me? Is reading the fine print, it says The average new vehicle gets 22 mpg and cost $12,600 to fuel over 5 years.

Which means my Honda Fit, which is considered by most to be economical, is only getting about 8 mpg above the average.

Pretty depressing.

Glad to see Toyota and these products....hopefully the average for all vehicles will rise.

 

Zero emissions at the tailpipe has a lot of benefits. Cleaning up tailpipe emissions is very important to me as tailpipe emissions very directly increase local pollution.

The efficiency of EV and HV drivetrains are basically the same regardless of speed. The only benefit HV has over EV at high speed is gasoline and it's wonderfully high energy density which enables long range.

IMO, the PiP is ideal for very few commutes and compromised EV range too much.

The average daily driven miles per vehicle is close to 30 miles / day[1]. If your goal is to minimize gasoline consumption while keeping gasoline backup for long trips, the PiP comes up way short.

[1] http://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf

 

According to EPA fueleconomy.gov, tailpipe and upstream GHG emissions* natl. avg. for
Volt - 260 g/mi
Leaf - 230 g/mi
2012 Prius - 222 g/mi (PiP not available yet)

* with gasoline, most g/mi CO2 from tailpipe emisisons (Prius 178g tailpipe, 44 g upstream)

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31767

... thinking of reasons why one would want to plug in ....

1) less or zero emissions at the tailpipe (if there is one
2) live in area of cleaner electricity generation (Leaf is 120g/mi in our zip code)
3) use less or no gasoline / fewer trips to gas station
4) prefer EV driving
5) new and interesting technology

-----------
side note - I would like to know about owner's plug-in habits with PiP - how often they plug-in, where, do some forget about it at time / too busy, etc, etc...

 

They added "Tailpipe & upstream GHG" in the Show dropdown box under Greenhouse Gas Emissions section for well-to-wheel emission.

These estimates include CO2, methane, and nitrous oxide emitted from all steps in the use of a fuel, from production and refining to distribution and final use—vehicle manufacture is excluded. Methane and nitrous oxide emissions are converted into a CO2 equivalent. Tailpipe emissions and upstream emissions—those that occur prior to the fuel being used in the vehicle—are displayed.​

That number is comparable to the Beyond Tailpipe Emissions calculator (well-to-wheel). Prius PHV is not there yet, just Volt and Leaf. The number from the calculator includes methane and nitrous oxide emission.

So be careful when you do the comparison because the default selection shows just the tailpipe CO2 emission. That value can be used to compare with no-plug vehicles but not with the plugin vehicles. To compare with the plugin vehicles, you need to choose Tailpipe & upstream GHG to compare from well to wheel.

 

Wha??? Have you not seen gasoline prices and it's effect on the economy? Our addition to oil is crippling us. Even if we only imported half the amount we do today given the effects of it's price on our economy it's too much. And it will only get worse as demand increases and oil gets tougher to extract.

Price - similarly equipped to Volt the price is very close after federal tax credit.
Short refuel time - you're looking at the wrong metric, here. You should be looking at maximum charge rate which is lower on the Prius than the Volt (240V/12A vs 16A).

 

That addiction is why heavy dependency on tax-credit money is just a short-term benefit.

To end the oil trouble, the technology must be sell in high-volume and be profitable on it's own.

There's a big difference between price & cost.
.

 

So, in your opinion it will sell less than the Volt??

 

I would guess a person that can afford a PiP definitely has a job and likely a commute of at least 10 miles or more one way .... given that, I think the PiP owner will be seeking a place to plug-in at work. ...

and I guess it ought to be covered parking with the 'don't leave fully charged car in hot sun' bullet in the manual.

... about sales / cost ...

according to EPA sticker, PiP saves $116 / year in fuel costs over Prius...

PiP base is a 2012 Three with plug port - $33k - $26.5k = 6.5k cost diff ...
in CA, get $1.5k state and $2.5k fed credits ...

after 2012 tax filing, $2.5k cost diff .... 21 years to make up cost diff, but you get a set of HOV stickers ...

btw, if want to sell cars to ordinary Joe and Jane, talk dollars, that's mostly what they understand

 

Yes.
And cost to own must include anticipated resale value and/or battery replacement.

 

I grew up in a house on the highway service road so I know how it is.

On the other side of the coin, whenever I pass by power plant on NJ turnpike, I turn on the air recirculate button. It stinks outside and it is located in a bad neighborhood. Healthcare cost come to my mind.

If we are talking about Leaf vs. WRX STi, I would take side with the Leaf. Prius tailpipe emission (especially the PHV) is already so clean, there is no clear winner here.

Gas is superior for the speed of refueling as well. Wind resistance at high speed is the real battery drainer. Go over 60mph and more than half of the energy would be spend on pushing against the air. EV would become a battery powered cordless air pusher. The time it takes to recharge it and the weight of the battery plus the amount of interior volume it takes, I don't think it is worth it. Spare tire is already out.

Gas is a better choice, especially when you have the cleanest and most efficient gas engine on board.

Let me look at that 2009 survey. This recent one said average car commuting distances were found to average 12.6 miles nationally.

You need to consider multiple charges per day as well. 50 MPG on long trips may save more gas (vs. 37 MPG) than saving gas a few miles daily on the weekdays.