New Prius v Sales Already Clobbered Volt

That was exactly my experience. The Volt available for a test drive wasn't plugged in, had no charge available, and was pretty dirty inside as the sales manager was using the car as a personal driver (booster seat in the back).

I had to track down a friend of a friend to get a test drive in a charged up vehicle.

 

How about ethanol? Regen brake energy captured in the battery is not alternative?

Alternative energy? Isn't everything from the sun?

 

Yup.. I'm stubborn. I'm also a professor and prefer that we use terms properly. Otherwise it only adds to the confusion. For example, there are programs that are about alternative fuel vehicles, (e.g. state rebates, HOV, etc) and they don't apply to hybrids. I will agree the average Joe thinks the prius is an alternative. They use the word alternative as meaning a choice other than what they have now.. (like 4wd, an suv is an alternative.) For that matter, only 2 of 5 voters can name the three branches of the federal government. And 49 percent of Americans think the president has the authority to suspend the Constitution. That does not make them correct or acceptable views.

This is not my definition. And its not just nerds at SAE. Even wikipedia defines it that way
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_fuel_vehicle]Alternative fuel vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

saying explicitly

The Volt is not an full electric, it is an extended range EV (EREV).
And I'm not worried if you think the Volt is special or not. I just don't like to see people misuse terminology.

But I will agree to most people anything efficient is different, and in the arena of highly efficient vehicles, Toyota is King.

 

If you prefer to use terms properly...take a close look at the definition you yourself are presenting.

" (Prius) are not actually alternative fuel vehicles."

PRECISELY...and properly I never contended that Hybrids or Prius are an alternative FUEL vehicle. Only that they could be considered an alternative vehicle choice.

So who's playing fast and loose with definition?

 

yes.

 

Since the Volt ICE can propel the wheels directly (in certain cases) it is not an extended range EV but rather a Plug-in hybrid vehicle...here is a misuse of terminology.

 

I like it, a simple answer not a snarky one.

Can we just close this thing, and decide the prius v would obvously sell more than the volt?

Ok next bet. How many months until NA prius phv will cumulatively outsell the volt? the leaf?

 

I'm trying to be precise.. you keep changing what you say. I'm just trying to pin it down.

I said Toyota dominated the Hybrid market but you said it was not just hybrids, Totyota dominated the "Alternative Market".

Okay so to you are clearly saying your definition of alternative as in " ALTERNATIVE automobiles" are not short hand for Alternative Fuel Vehicles but also saying it is not synonymous with Hybrid. I've already admitted there are other definitions of alternative (meaning different) and that they could be considered an alternative (as in a choice), but that is not the same as the "Alternative market".

You then offered a definition about creating momentum, which is very non standard. I respond that only "creation" of momentum in a Prius is from gas, and that after its created they are just capturing kinetic energy via regen/motors and storing it into the battery to later release releasing it via the same motors. Regen/use is not creating anything, its just more efficiently using what the gas engine created.


So clearly you have some other definitions I don't understand. Educate me. Can you please point to a definition, from a reliable source, that defines alternative vehicles to match your definition which includes hybrids such as the Prius. If you want to claim Toyota dominates the "Alternative Market", and that is what the average person would think it means, there should be lots of places to find such a definition.

 

Nothing in the definition of EREV says how it is propelled. In the current proposed standards definition, EREV is a Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle is a Hybrid Vehicle. An EREV is defined by its ability to provide the full range of performance in EV mode. an PHEV is any vehicle that uses grid-based (plug in) power in addition to a second source of fuel. (a plug-in hydrogen Fuel cell is still a PHEV). a hybrid Electric Vehicle uses types of energy in its drive system, one of which is electricity.

 

This argument has gone on too much as it is.

Simply, I think it fair to consider a Prius an Alternative Automotive Choice...by most peoples standards.

I NEVER said The Prius was an Alternative Fuel Vehicle...which is the definition you belatedly present as evidence that my contention is incorrect.

I'm not the one changing or expanding definition to fit my argument.

But never mind...The whole thing has little to do with my original post, which was tied to the original thread. It does not surprise me in the least that Prius V has clobbered Volt in sales.

That's what this whole thread started as...not a argument of how you want to define "Alternative" automobile.

If you want to defend your VOLT by excusing it from comparison by applying specific definition...then enjoy.

 

Welcome to the real world... where a decade later people still mislabel Prius, despite a clear SAE definition.

That's why you should just let it go and focus on what actually matters... consumed GALLONS and KWH.
.

 

It does not surprise me either. But probably for another reason.

Prius V outsold (and will outsell) the Volt because Toyota is the king of alternative marketing. They developed a new body styling adding a few inches into a hatchback, and called it an alternative model. That alternative model will sell well, mostly by cannibalizing and riding the coat-tails of existing model sales. Prius family sales for 2011 (including the V) sales were down 3.2% compared to 2010.

 

Prius family sales for 2011 were down due to the disaster in Japan, why putting this in the context of this thread? Taking things out of context?

 

Since the OP is claiming the Prius V sales over the volt were significant, but I'm saying that Prius V is a mixture of cannibalization + coat-tails of the existing prius, its relevant to know if with and without Prius V the sales were up or down. If the sales were more than 9K above 2010, then claiming the Prius V sales as an increase makes sense. (Though probably still coat tailing). With sales down one cannot conclude that the Prius V did much of anything in terms of sales. I acknowledge supply problems (but that supply limited Volt too). It is too mixed interms of sales to draw any meaningful conclusion.

 

It's mixed in terms of sales because you mixed it.
Why not taking September 2011 to (including) January 2012 (including) in order to minimise the (acknowledged by you) effect of what happened in Japan?

 

Per the proposed definition, it is a hybrid so it should be ERHEV. In short, ERHV.

There is a reason why the definition is not standard. The standard classification look at the source of fuel, not what drives the wheels, not the mode of operation, not the electric motor power, not the battery power, not the speed the battery and electric motor can operate

 

John, I actually do know The Volt is not a full Electric. It was a mistake for me to label it as such.

However, my contention is I never applied the SAE definition of an Alternative FUEL vehicle...to my agument. My presentation was always ONLY that Toyota is king of Alternative Vehicle choices available to the mainstream.

And I do think it fair to apply that definition to hybrids and Prius.

 

Let's muddy the waters further and speculate on a PIP-C! With its smaller size and weight it could match the PIP's 15 miles with a smaller battery pack, and sell for around 25 or 26K. How would that impact the PHEV market?

 

You aren't the first, or even among a small crowd. Anyone remember that little sport pick up, almost car like, Chevy put out? It didn't do well. The sole purpose of that vehicle was to be a halo vehicle for Chevy, because the public wasn't equating the Corvette with its parent brand.

 

Back to the subject, I don't see how the Volt can be a viable product given the high price, dismal sales and the ready availability of competitive vehicles* like the Prius v and the Prius liftback.

I can understand the delays inherant in adopting new technology. But to me, the Volt's technology isn't all that "new" or groundbreaking. Most people understand how electric motors work. So, they consider the Volt to be an electric sedan with a backup generator - one that isn't all that efficient. That's how I see it, BTW.

The innovative thing about the Prius is not the mere fact that it has a battery and MGs. It is how the battery/MGs work hand-in-glove with the ICE to constantly monitor and maximize fuel efficiency. That synergy between battery/MGs and ICE is only possible with the help of modern computer technology. This use of computer technology is something people can appreciate and admire. That synergy is what the Volt lacks.


(*Just so this doesn't lead to another pointless debate about semantics, by "competitive vehicles," I mean vehicles for people who are looking for great fuel economy.)