New Prius v Sales Already Clobbered Volt

I know I have had two people ask me how often I plug my prius in, but I can assure you the toyota hybrids only run on fossil fuel. The phv will be different, but that is not on dealer lots waiting for buyers.

 

maybe I'm a little off topic.. but did anyone realize the MKZ on the hybrid list? i didn't realize they released any hybrids yet. it's prices the exact same as the base model. it's rated at 46/36. (i used to own an 18/16 mpg lincoln before my prius.)

i feel people are buying up the prius V because it's the largest fuel sipper you can get in the toyota line. i want to see a small truck though... something that at least gets 40. i would expect more like 30-35 while hauling.

 

The MKZ EPA milage however is only 41/36 (not 46).
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31395.shtml

Last year the MKZ hybrid dold about 5700 units.

If your looking for a truck, Viamotors is taking pre-orders for EREV pickups. Its nto cheap but There is an efficiency and cost saving s calculator at
http://www.viamotors.com/vtrux/life-cycle-savings-calculator/

 

Um...you're comparing apples and oranges...unless somehow Toyota is selling a plug-in version of the V already.

 

I agree with hill. Price is probably the most underrated innovation. Price innovation along with a balance set of features is the reason why Prius c screams so loud.

 

Price is not an innovation. It is a feature of a product. Sustaining and continuos innovations can help reduce price, which is an often desired featured. Part of the Innovator's dilemma is that is almost always easier to reduce price on a well established product than to invest in a new technology. Deciding when/where to invest in disruptive technologies is the biggest gamble a large company can take.

Reducing price on HV to make it more mainstream is, however, a very important thing. Its good to see Toyota going even lower in the price spectrum with the Prius C. Low price cars generally sell well. But don't confuse price with innovation. Toyota gambled on HV and its helped them. If one applied the same logic you are suggesting now back then, there would be no Prius. They need to increase their market share in the HV segment, push costs down in their prior innovation, as the figure out how to be innovative in a new segment of PHEV/EVs.

 

I disagree. Prius c (as well as Prius V) doesn't have components that diminished in return to keep the price low. That's more challenging than engineering a halo vehicle with twice the price ceiling.

With the fuel politics aside (domestic/foreign), 50 MPG Prius produces the least amount of greenhouse gas emission over Volt or Leaf -- per EPA. At least for now until the grid gets cleaner.

42 MPG Prius v emit slightly more (264 vs. 260 gram/mile) than the Volt but v's interior volume is two size classes larger (23 cu.ft difference). The price difference is huge as well, $26k vs. $40k.

Your point about the potential of higher risk technology is noted. NS4 and FCV-R are coming out in 2015. I think Toyota is right to cut the cost of HSD first before focusing on the next big things.

 

Emissions depend on where you live and/or buy your pwer. Sure you can find examples where the Prius is cleaner. But for your personal case (queens NY). its not. The EPA estiamte for Queens is 190g vs the Prius 222. In LA (zip 90210) its also 190g. In Colorado Springs its 330, which is why I'm payying extra for wind (and helping to clean up my grid!)


I agree dropping price as in the Prius C is hard. So is true innovation like the Volt. Both are important, one short term, one long term. We'll see what the NS4 offers in innovation. The V is just a bigger body on an existing platform. Its not a new car, its a body-style change. So sales of if compared to a true new car are meaningless.

 

You think I don't know what a Hybrid is? I have hung around this forum for years.

I don't really want to get in a debate over the definition of alternative or hybrid.

I realize Prius Hybrids burn fossil fuel.

But I since HSD creates momentum for the vehicle by employing and ICE coupled with electric motors? I think it's obviously fair to define the standard HSD "synergy"...the "S" stands for synergy....as a system that creates vehicle movement by burning fossil fuels and utilizing a battery and electricity...pretty basic stuff....

Therefore I think it fair to say...If you want a vehicle that doesn't burn ONLY fossil fuel..you are probably shopping on a Toyota lot.

But it's semantics.

Yes, Toyota doesn't offer a full electric. Not the debate or arguement I was making.

The original post of this entire thread was based on the report that Prius V beat Chevy VOLT sales. It seems to me? Both those vehicles are not FULL EV vehicles either.

You want to debate or be upset that Toyota doesn't yet offer a full EV vehicle? Go ahead.

But not the point of this thread, nor the point I was making.

My point? Doesn't surprise me at the least that Toyota Prius V sales have eclipsed Chevy VOLT sales....

Because when it comes to ALTERNATIVE automobiles available to the mainstream...I'll say it again...Toyota is KING.

 

I heard this on the radio the other day, when the DJIA broke 13,000 for the first time in 4 years.

"Optimism is running high. So high Chevrolet actually sold a Volt!"

 

"Alternative" means burns something other than gas. Except for the soon to be delivered PiP, nothing in the Toyota lineup burns anything but gasoline.

(Aside from the flex-fuel Tundra/Sequoia, but those still require a minimum 15% gasoline / 85% ethanol).

Toyota may be king of hybrids, but that's it. Other manufacturers have lead in terms of alternatives:

Tesla, Honda (CNG Civic), Nissan (LEAF), Mitsubishi (iMiEV), Ford (multiple CNG models for fleets, Focus EV) are all ahead of Toyota.

The PiP is the only Toyota that offers a real "Alternative" - and only in 11 mile spurts.

 

I would argue that the Prius V outsells not because its an alternative but because its just bigger variant of an established car. Model variants need less to sell than an actual new model. Anyone looking at a prius might just say. oh yeah some extra space I'll go for that .. efficiency is not really that important. The Volt is about the most expensive thing in a Chevy dealer and not as easily cross shopped.

 

The volt has many large hurdles and drinnovation probably hit one of the big hurdles in that the chevy volts biggest hurdle is internal... Sales locations are not selling the product. Why? I think there are many in Chevy land and GM land that are not "on board". And this infighting in the ranks has helped to negatively impact sales.

Yes, the concerns with the batteries both in fires related with charging and the infamous fire weeks after at testing ground in Wisconsin impacted sales, and of course the cost is a factor.

However the $7,500 tax brings the price down to a reasonable level, and I guess in California, the ability to drive in the car pool lane with 1 person in car is a big enough incentive, along with an additional $1,500 from the state, (must be nice)!

Still, all in all the Volt has been a big disappointment when it comes to sales. Very BIG!
And this is from someone wanting it to do well!

 

The volt is BY FAR NOT THE MOST EXPENSIVE thing in a Chevy dealer!

Not even close. Closest dealer to me has Chevy Corvettes (lots) most expensive is 71K...
Then we have several Tahoes and suburbans in the 60's and high 50's. And my favorites, the 4 door pickup truck silverado.

There are roughly 25 vehicles more expensive than the 1st volt at 45K.
In fact a highend camaro comes in a couple hundred more.

What exactly was your point?

 

Okay. you got me on that the price issue. Clearly I've not been in many chevy dealers and forgot about the vette. (My last chevy purchase before the volt was in the 80's). I did not even know they have 25 vehicle types.


My point is that people shopping for a Prius can easily decided on a different body style (hatchback vs wagon) and endup in a V -- not much difference in price or performance just in space. Even people looking at a Camry may consider the Prius family close enough. However, people shopping for a Cruze will often gag at the Volt's price. People looking for a Tahoe will not even be looking at cars. People looking at the Vette.. probably not looking at anything else. Camaro buyers.. well maybe the Volt can steal them. But anyone walking into a chevy dealer looking for an fuel efficient car will have the choice between something much lower cost and the Volt. It works as a halo as people come in, get excited and then endup going with a Cruize.

A secondary issue is that because it new, the chevy dealers I talked with have no idea how to sell the Volt. Many don't even keep it charged, and give test drives on ICE (which is a disgrace to the car). They have a "volt" specialist so just about everyone on the lot, except the specialists, wants to talk you into something else (so they can get a commission). I've been to 4 dealers and I knew more about the Volt than all of their "specialists" (probably combined). I showed 3 out of the 4 the mountain mode trick so they can at least get some EV in the demo even if its too hard to get the car over to the charger.

 

Ahh..and there's the rub. I disagree.

I personally define "Alternative" as meaning any vehicle that creates momentum using methods or combinations of methods other than singularly the standard Internal Combustion Engine.

I would define Hybrids as "Alternative" vehicles. Although not the "only" alternative vehicles available.

Within Prius Chat...it may seem that HSD and Prius is not alternative...but out in the real world? I still think to the majority, Hybrids and Prius is considered an Alternative Choice.

 

Even with your own definition.. the Prius is not Alternative. It does not create momentum with any power source other than gas. It may recapture momentum in a battery and redeploy that using electricity, but it only generates momentum using gas.

I the general population, a hybrid (at 2% market share) is not a "normal car" and I can see you you want to call it an alternative. But alternative fuel vehicle vehicles have a formal definition from SAE, and this is not wonderland were you can make a work mean you what it to mean.

 

I still think you're being stubborn with your definition of Alternative.

Yes, I think we all know The Standard Prius burns fossil fuel, and uses the engine to keep a charge in the battery.

Since HSD does indeed create momentum using the battery powering electric motors, and infact Prius can under specific circumstance run under electric power alone...to say it does NOT create momentum by any other means is patently incorrect.

HSD plays a "shell game" to an extent, using the engine to keep the battery charged...but The Prius does create momentum using systems blended with an ICE to create momentum. And infact can and will be propeled at times not using the ICE at all.

I believe you own a VOLT? Perhaps you are insulted by my applying the term "Alternative" to a vehicle as "common" as The Prius?

Toyota has done a masterful job mainstreaming Prius and Hybrids. Hybrids...are not full electric vehicles.

I still think by common, accepted standards, most people would consider Prius an "Alternative" automotive choice.

That doesn't make your full electric Volt any less special.

I don't really care about a "formal definition from SAE". What I care about is the perception as accepted by the general population.

You can personally decide that to you a Prius isn't an "true alternative" automobile.

I still think in relationship to the majority...which is still overwhelmingly ICE based ownership...the Prius is an alternative automobile.