Canceling my PiP order.

Not necessarily. Based on the just released EPA numbers from Toyota's website, the Prius Plug-in uses 0.273 kWh/mi compared the Leaf's 0.36 kWh/mi.

 

When I lived in rural North Dakota I heated my home and water with LP gas. I had a 500-gallon tank in the yard, which was filled periodically by a delivery truck. The LP gas company offered a conversion to make a car run on propane. I could have filled my car from the bulk tank in the yard. The delivery truck ran on LP.

I had no interest in converting my car. I saw no advantage in it. I'd have been unable to fill anywhere except at home or at the gas company's office. But it was certainly feasible.

The big difference is that LP gas is delivered and stored as a liquid and does not require that the customer compress it.

 

How are you calculating that? The LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe on the combined cycle - the Prius PiP is rated at 95 MPGe so should consume about 4% more electricity.

 

The Leaf EPA sticker states it uses 36 kWh per 100 miles. The Prius Plug-in takes 3 kWh to charge and has an range of 11 miles.

I believe the Prius Plug-in MPGe includes gas usage b/c the EPA test includes speeds above 62 mph. Including gas usage would drop the MPGe number significantly.

 

Those 2 sentences directly contradict each other (never mind that you really mean 34 kWh / 100 mi, not 360 kWh).

Where are you getting 3 kWh to charge the PiP? I have seen a few different numbers thrown around...

Until we see the actual kWh / 100 mi number on an EPA sticker, I would not claim any numbers are final. The only ones we know are final are 95 MPGe, 51/50/50 MPG and 11 miles range on EPA tests.

In fact, given that we know that the EPA uses 33.7 kWh as 1 "MPGe", we can work backwards from the range number.

95 MPGe means the PiP will travel 95 miles on 33.7 kWh
33.7 / 95 = 355 Wh / mi
11mi * .355 kWh = 3.9 kWh for a full charge.

 

3kWh for a full charge is from Japanese Prius PHV.

273 Wh per mile is damn impressive for a midsize. i-MiEV consumes more electricity per mile at 300 Wh/mi.

273 Wh/mi translates to 124 MPGe. 50 MPG on regular gas. A blend is rated 95 MPGe.

 

You should verify before you jump ship that the Volt is going to qualify for the HOV lane. I believe access for any non Electic-Only vehicle, including the pip, is in the hands of the federal government and their decision is not due until early March.

 

...presumably there is some gaso used in the PiP 95 MPGe value. Some on this site have long speculated that the 100% EV efficiency for PiP would be >110 MPGe (adjusted to zero gaso use basis). Sounds like more details are now emerging. In other words, some have expected a very efficient electric motor on PiP, but you don't see it in the 95 number because it is a blended with gaso number.

PS- I wish the PHV/EV stickers would go with the kwhr/mile numbers not MPGe is not MPGe at all, it is best thought of as Gasoline Aviodance Score, and that is what they should call it.

 

Additional point...I test drove an original pip for 6 weeks and more than 2500 miles. I was able to recharge (in less than 3 hours) at work. I consistently was able to drive between 11-12 miles per charge, on the freeway doing 60-62 mph. I commute 32 miles each way to and from work so less than 1/2 of my driving was under battery power. Yet, I averaged as high as 111.1 mpg on a tank.

 

Low cost because you only have one engine system. After Rebates you could be talking $20k for an EV. Then electricity is very cheap right now, on the order of 3x less than gasoline for the equivalent amount to propel a car. Note I am not saying EV uses less energy, just saying the energy it uses does cost less. So EV is semi-cheap car with cheap refills, Leaf starts to be among cheapest cars on the road for those who only need 70-100 miles per trip after ten years say, assuming Li batt replacements don't kill your maintenance costs (unknown).

 

Oops, I fixed the typo. It took me a while to wrap my head around the MPGe figure as well, but as wjtracy explains, blended MPGe takes a big penalty for using gas.

I got it from Toyota Japan's website. Here's the link:
http://translate.googleusercontent....41.php&usg=ALkJrhjNMs7q8fLsPdkXR-FoBUm9x3golg

I was reluctant to use the 3kWh number bandied around until a PriusChatter pointed to the Toyota Japan website. It's not clear the EPA numbers are an apples to apples comparison due to all EV MPGe vs blended MPGe.

Actually, you can't. Without knowing the gasoline vs electricity contribution, you can't work anything out from blended MPGe to compare to EV MPGe. That's why I resorted to kWh/mi for an apples to apples comparison. Unfortunately, the 11 mi. range is a blended number, so I'm back to being unable to compare the two.

 

http://www.green.autoblog.com/2011/...y-volt-ready-for-california-hov-access-extra/
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

 

That is b/c it is using gasoline as well. They need to clear up some more information such as the SOC swing allowable as well. If you calculate the SOC swing allowable for some vehicles, their stated range, and their stated consumption it is about impossible.

Check the iMiev and Leaf and you will see what I mean.

 

What does "blended" actually mean?

It's likely the same definition as "city", which means not highway.

Based on that, I would expect "blended" to mean not electric.

And since there could be a brief moment when the engine runs, that qualifier would fit. So even if it's just 1% of the time and uses only 0.01 gallons of fuel, the label of "blended" would make sense.

In the end, it doesn't matter anyway. On paper calculations are just crude estimates. They don't take into account all the nuances of everyday driving. Just look at how wildly Volt's EV distance varies for those with the same daily commute.

Always look deeper when detail isn't provided.
.

 

EPA testing does not require that blended operation is "mainly on battery power". It means that the engine is used while the charge of the HV battery is above its charge sustaining level, i.e. it still has some grid-based power. It could be mostly engine with a little battery and it would still be blended.

Since there are are also emissions concerns, once the engine i started it may choose to run the engine to full temp, even if it does need the power and infact could be recharging the battery while doing so, which is allowed by EPA PHEV testing.

With what has been posted and what I've read there is insufficient data to draw a conclusion on how much gas was used or how often. As before we'll just have to wait for Toyota/EPA to release the actual test data for that and for the combined EPA MPGe overall estimate. The fact that Totyota is not putting it in a press-release suggests to me that it is not likely good news.

 

You're not saying it, but I will:

According to [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline"]this page[/ame], there are 36.6 kWh in a U.S. gallon of gasoline. My Prius gets roughly 50 mpg on the highway (my long road trips to Canada and back). That's 732 Wh per mile, or very roughly double the energy of today's EVs.