Anyone waiting for PIP getting the "itch" to consider a Chevy Volt instead?

It's a personal decision, and I can't argue with most of the points you made. However, with regard to PiPs traveling in the HOV lane at 62 mph in order to stay in EV mode, I don't see that happening. From what I understand from discussions here, if you don't use all the EV charge in the first 15 miles, it will be available when you get off the freeway and drive at lower speeds. I will drive in the HOV lane as I have with my two Gen IIs, switching over to the regular lanes if the speed in the HOV lane exceeds 70 mph. I do that for a couple of reasons, one being that fudging the limit by 5 mph is acceptable to me, but I don't want to risk getting a ticket by going any faster. Another reason is that I don't want to hold up the drivers who aren't bothered by the first. And finally, I have found that if the HOV lane is going at 70 or above, it usually means that the other lanes are moving along fairly well too. It seems most drivers in the HOV lane slow down when the traffic in the next lane over is going slowly or stopped. You never know when some idiot is going to make a sudden lane change in front of you, whether or not there is a double yellow line prohibiting such a maneuver.

 

Because they could....because the battery pack and specific power are large enough that they don't need to use the gas engine to help out until all of the domestically produced, cheap and potentially cleaner grid charge is used up. Then they start the gas engine and use typical full hybrid techniques with a 300+ Wh battery buffer to blend engine and electric motor power. Toyota can do similar things when they feel ready to include a larger battery pack.

 

Jeff N,

Fixed that for ya

 

Are you sure you got the eAT-PZEV Volt? I don't think it came out yet. Please make sure or you won't qualify for the HOV lane.

Prius PHV can get $1,500 CA rebate also (plus $2,500 federal). Not sure about the $2k in home charger credit.

 

Why not 75 mph? or US top speed limit?

Why not 113 mph to beat Prius top speed?

 

Again, you're assuming one thing:
(1) that people will NOT want to maximize efficiency (vis a vis PHEV or EV) as oil supplies continue to spiral down. Look at the graphs. They show the rate of new well discoveries has dramatically decreased ... over the last FOURTY years now. So - any new ones will NOT make up that kind of loss. At the same time, usage has NOT gone up for about 1/2 a decade now ... in case you have any doubt that production has peaked. When we start paying as much as the EU and asian countries do for THEIR liquid carbon fuel, just watch how the 10mpg vehicles hit the side of the road.

 

Yes, the Volts built during the 2/6 production run are the CA emissions package and qualify for the Green HOV sticker (eATPZEV)

 

I believe this is referring to the up to $2,000 rebate for a home charger that the local utility provides for (PH)EV owners who install chargers with a separate time-of-use meter. It is a rebate, where they pay you the money you spent regardless of tax liability as opposed to a tax credit, which is subtracted from your tax liability. LADWP offers this and I believe so does SoCal Edison. I'm not sure what utility serves SF, however.

 

Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E)

 

In which state do you live? Maybe we can get the cleancitycollation to pressure your state to move to an audible model so your paid green energy is really there.

If your state already has excess green energy, so that non-green purchasers are getting a lot of excess, then the good thing is that your greener than average... but you would be correct that your buying green may not make a difference if its an RPS state that double counts with no time restrictions and does not track from production to purchase.

 

My utility, PG&E, averages .524 pounds CO2 per kWh and uses 5% or less of coal so it is less than half of the U.S. average grid CO2 and has very low emissions of other pollutants. California law requires regular increases in the target mix for renewable energy sources. I get an annualized average of 300 Wh per mile (wall-to-wheels) in my Volt and would do a bit better if I switched from 120V to 240V.

My 25-30 mile typical commute day is all EV running on an overnight off-peak charge at the effective rate of 8-10 cents per kWh so that's $3.00 per 100 miles versus $7 or so per 100 miles in a 50 MPG Prius. Last year I did more long road trip driving than usual, so my total MPG was only 106 and I'm substituting over half of the gasoline I would have used in my 2004 Prius with cheaper, cleaner, lower-carbon electricity from the grid.

Thanks for asking!

 

Prius PHV can blend/mix in two ways. A simple hardware performs that without the need for 3 clutches nor shift gears like the Volt.

1) Instantaneous blend that uses up the battery SOC and run the gas engine at the same time. This is the charge depletion (CD) mode.

2) Alternative blend. This alternates between EV and HV mode. During the HV mode, the battery SOC will be sustained. As with the current Prius, both will be used for full acceleration but the battery will be recharged back up. This is alternating between CD<->CS modes.

Volt blends/mixes the battery and gas but only with type 2 (alternative blend). It does it with mountain mode, when hood is open, for heater, engine maintenance, fuel maintenance or the battery is depleted.

Just want to respond to this....

I picked 85 mph because it is well above the 62mph limit for Prius PHV that Volt owners gloat about. That's also the speed people drive in Texas. 75 mph is the limit but cops don't catch you if you stay under 90 mph. It also shows the alarming rate of the battery depletion vs. the recharging time.

I used 10-12 hours recharge time because that's the official number using the charger that comes with the Volt.

So what? Prius PHV will continue to use the grid battery charge until it runs out, whether the gas engine come on or not.

Prius PHV owners will drive entirely on the battery for most or all the frequent short city trips to do their daily chores. Those kind of statements are just cherry picking certain trips. We should look at the bigger picture.

Overall, 1/3 of Volt miles are on 37 MPG gas engine. We'll have to see the real-world data from Prius PHV but from the graph I have seen it'll be between 1/2 and 2/3 on gas. Over the life time of both cars (150k miles), the difference in gas usage is 150 to 650 gallons (Prius PHV using more). The difference in electricity usage is 21,857 to 26,857 kWh (Volt using more). The charging time difference is 19,286 hours (2.2 years) to 24,286 hours (2.8 years), Volt taking longer. The gas refill time difference is probably a few days.

Is that an admission that Volt only make sense to the niche market? Prius PHV running on 50 MPG gas is as clean as Volt running on electricity, so it makes sense for the nation wide roll out with average electricity. Electricity can provide close to 100% domestic fuel where gasoline is around 50% domestic.

Those looking for a clean/green midsize that runs on 50% domestic fuel can go with the no-plug Prius. Those looking to run more on domestic fuel can pay extra and get the plugin version.

For those purist that must run on 100% renewable and 100% domestic can get the Volt. That assumes downsizing to compact size with SUV weight is acceptable and welcomes the battery pack as a family member (always riding in the rear middle back seat).

 

Man you have a hard time with facts. I-10 between san antonio and el paso look it up.

 

What does that have to do with the rest of the country or the rapid depletion caused by driving that fast?

Here, top speed is 70 and only on select highway stretches. Many people respect the limit too. Not all states are like Texas.
.

 

Oh, ok! I was just going by my memory the last time I was in Texas, years ago.

 

Nope.. that's not the official time. THe official statement is "Choose a standard 120V charging kit that allows you to plug into a conventional electrical outlet and fully charge the battery in about 10 hours, depending on climate. " About 10hours is not 10-12hours. And I've never had it take 10 hours. It takes longer when the temps are hot so maybe in palm springs summers it can take that long. I did a full charge on the night before last (had to run errands.. 43.6m CD, 1.2 miles using .03gallons of gas), and it started charging at 10:30pm and finished before 7:30, so less than 9 hours.

Not correct. If say John runs out for a egg McMuffin and some groceries, say 8 miles or the trip needs him accelerate to get into traffic or spend 1 exist on the expressway then the engine runs and uses gas, yet when he returns home there is still grid energy left. So it does not use it until its runs out.. only on long enough trips.

How will we get real-world data from Prius PHV? The volt reports data that is automatically tracked -- will there be a prius tracking site?

Charging time is a relatively pointless measure, as long as it is all within a normal overnight charge -- which for both of these it is.

Your numbers suggest the PHV wil use 5x in gas. I think that is low (I estimate more like 6x), but 5x reduction is still significant is it not?

 

I wonder how typical those speeds are for the kind of drivers who are in the market for a Volt or Prius in order to drive their daily commute -- even in Texas. My experience is that Prius drivers in urban California areas usually go around 65-70 or less.

People drive faster in rural areas like traveling between San Francisco and Los Angeles on I-5 in the Central Valley or in West Texas but that is an area where you are usually driving way past the battery range of a Volt anyway.

It will be interesting to see the actual data emerge from real-world use. The PiP may be more prone to inefficient short cycling of the gas engine because of the smaller EV range. It may be more likely that drivers will go somewhere just beyond the 13-15 range and therefore spend a higher percentage of their gas miles than a non-plug Prius operating the engine inefficiently. Same story if the gas engine starts up momentarily to blend in additional power during a trip. In a non-plug Prius that warmup overhead is overwhelmed by all of the rest of the engine use once the Prius gets super-efficient.

The absolute amount of gasoline involved is relatively small but if it is part of a typical driving routine it may reduce the overall CS MPG efficiency noticeably. The same issues apply to the Volt but may be less common because of the full power EV capability and more trips being completed within the total daily battery range. However, you do see this effect in the Voltstats.net database for some cars that have high EV utilization and presumably use the gas engine primarily for short distances or to help heat the cabin in colder winter climates.

Once again, people will tend to buy the cars that work individually best for them. People who frequently drive long distances 85 MPH in West Texas may find the Volt or PiP are not their best choice. People who live in areas where they can't get access to reasonably priced low-emission electricity should probably skip all plugins and get a high efficiency hybrid like a Prius or Ford Fusion. That leaves many many millions of potential customers for plugin cars. It's a very large niche. We are entering an era where there will be multiple different solutions that meet our needs rather than everyone just driving a gas-only car.

 

+1. Very well put.

 

The base model PiP does not have OnStar-like telematics which can upload and make that data available automatically. The advanced PiP model does have telematics but I don't know whether Toyota has any plans that would make mileage data available for download to a site like voltstats.

 

This is faulty logic and usbseawolf2000 is correct, the Prius Plug-in will continue to use grid energy until it runs out. In your example, it simply hasn't had a chance to run out. If we were to follow your logic, the Volt also would "not use it until it runs out".

My understanding is that it is not that difficult to accelerate moderately and keep the Prius Plug-in in EV, which is how a person who cares about energy conservation will drive anyways. Also, a single expressway exit is short enough that driving no faster than 62 mph is not that big of a deal (cities are 55 or 65mph speed limit). So I may have to drive 3mph slower to stay in EV, which is not too bad of a compromise for a short trip.

Any long distance driving at fast speeds will be beyond the range of both the Prius Plug-in and Volt, where HV efficiency becomes the critical factor.