Anyone waiting for PIP getting the "itch" to consider a Chevy Volt instead?

No, it's a electrified vehicle subsidy targetted at GM. A battery subsidy would not have a cutoff range that is exactly the same as the battery capacity of the Volt maximizes the amount that GM can receive for the battery cost. The Leaf and Roadster have larger batteries, but gets no such credit beyond 16kWh, despite having 50% and 150%-400% larger batteries. A 16kWh cutoff has only one meaning, to maximize the amount GM can benefit.

The problem I have with such a tax credit is the critical metric is number of EV miles, not battery capacity. Basing it on battery capacity disregards making the electrified vehicle efficient.

 

http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-...phv-production-battery-cells.html#post1470120

Apology accepted.

The schematic apparently shows a 150A fuse protecting the 207V 2012 production PiP battery pack and therefore implies a maximum battery pack output of 31 kW.

I don't know whether that will turn out to be true after further investigation, but it does show that you agree there is legitimate uncertainty about the actual maximum battery output.

And it remains true that the only public Toyota statement about the 2012 production PiP battery kW output is that it has a maximum output of 27 kW, as documented in the brochure handed out at the official PiP introduction in Frankfurt last year. The SAE paper you quoted above is about the prototype PiP and I was originally talking about the production PiP.

 

Wow, that was easy. I didn't even need to apologize.

 

38kw may be is good if one only looks at UDDS or low-power demands cycles. (You don't say the source of your data. ) Recent reports on real-world driving show much higher demands. An argonee lab report (See
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/551.pdf
and
http://www.autonomie.net/docs/6 - P...rements/impact_of_real_world_drive_cycles.pdf
looked at the power demands of real-world driving and different test cycles and produced the following chart showing power demands


And the following showing time to the demand exceeding 50kw.


And the fraction of trips and speeds at which depends exceed 50kw.



I will point out, however, their conclusions do support part of your conclusion saying

And also conclude

So many of the point you make are supported by their report, though they only seem to consider power-split designs for PHEVs so the second conclusion is not very surprising. However they recommend much larger batteries saying

 

I forgot to mention one more point about the bigger picture.

A large number of Prius Plug-in drivers with limited EV range vs a smaller number of Volt drivers with a less limited EV range will create a stronger demand for ubiquitous EV chargers which will accelerate the transition to pure EV.

 

I reviewed the NHTSA and IIHS ratings for both vehicles and they are comparable. For crash test purposes, both are classified as small cars by IIHS. informedforlife.org favors the Volt b/c in their calculation the weight of the car increases the safety of the car. This is true in certain situations for the the occupants of said car if it hits another car. However, it increases the fatality rate of all vehicles involved in the accident.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/06/on-the-safety-of-large-vehicles/

The increased safety of a Volt driver comes at the cost of greater decrease in safety for the driver he/she hits. From the narrow view of the Volt driver, yes it is a safer vehicle. From the broader view of all vehicles involved in the accident, it is a more dangerous vehicle.

Furthermore, if you were to hit a stationary object, a lighter car has less kinetic energy to absorb and with all other things being equal, is safer.

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v41_3_08/article14.shtml

 

So true! And complaining about the cost of gas for their 12-mpg vehicles which they drive for the cowboy cache and because an econobox would embarrass their manly sensitivities.

 

Hmm seems my last post lost its final paragraph.. which was


What I found odd about the article is the avoiding discusion of the EREV model. Once one has added batteries fo 11kw, the incremental cost/weight to move to EREV from blended PHEV is about $100 and 10lb (for the 110kw traction motor vs the smaller 50kw). However they don't discuss that or really why blended is better once the battery pack is big enough to be the primary drive power for most trips.

 

I am holding off on buying an *EV until I can power it with something other than coal. When that time comes, I'll shop the manufacturers I trust, and wait some more if range or price are problems.

My only peripheral interest in GM is looking forward to its demise.

 

Again, you're assuming two things:
(1) that people even want a PHEV
(2) the aim of ownership is to maximize efficiency

(1) I don't want a PHEV. I expect that many other buyers of PHEVs don't want a PHEV: they really want a BEV but it doesn't meet their needs.
(2) the aims can be:
- Maximize efficiency
- Enjoy the EV ride
- Reduce gasoline consumption

I would be happy to sacrifice some efficiency for more EV. I don't do it in the Prius liftback because EV is too limited. I'm sure that many of the Volt owners who post here would love a PiP-40with a 16kWh battery since that would be more efficient than the Volt and give them the same EV ride. But they can't buy one, so they bought the Volt and as a result use less gasoline and drive in EV mode most of the time. Then several of them have invested their money in solar or renewable electricity instead of investing in petroleum.

If you want to maximize efficiency, I'd suggest getting a Honda 125 and an e-bike. The 125 will give you great gasoline efficiency for longer trips and the e-bike will give you great efficiency on shorter trips. They're also a lot cheaper than a PiP.

1a) Petroleum dependency is so great that it takes a large amount of military spending to protect it and many people die for it. I don't believe the GREET model takes that into account.
1b) The USA's electrical grid is inefficient and desperately in need of investment. Redirecting money from petroleum to electricity in a way that doesn't require any significant additional capacity puts more money where investment can help make the grid both cleaner and more efficient.

I might also ask again: why is it up to 100km/h instead of up to 95km/h?

 

In most states you can pay extra to buy renewable energy. I pay for wind energy. (Lots of that in CO and TX.) Check with your energy supplier on what options they offer.

Some folks will say that its bogus because the electrons are all the same.. which is only half true. The electrons are all the same, but if I pay for wind, they must be able to show the wind energy was generated/used even if the actual electrons go to bob (who did not pay) and my local power is actually from the coal plant. Its called displacement but since we "waste" so much wind its important that people actually by it, or the companies turn off the wind-generators.



It has been reported the 2010 the US idled 25TeraWatts of Wind energy, because it easier to idle wind at night compared to other generators. That biases the answers in terms of fossil fuel, but also means the incremental power needs of EVs at night could be almost all satisfied by renewables. 25TW is about 700 Million gallons of gas equivalent, that the country just threw away never to see again. I think that number is high, but even if only half it was included in the renewable side and coal use reduced the efficiency would be even higher. But since its not generated (just idled) its not in the EIA data.. and some people actually use that to argue wind is less efficient because it "wasted" that energy. (There is a lot of polotics around energy because of the money involved.)

For info on the curtailed wind energy see
http://cleantechnica.com/2011/03/27/25-twh-of-wind-power-idled-in-2010-in-us-grid-storage-needed/

 

Well said.

(what happened to the "thanks" button?)

 

drinnovation,
I would be elated to have your local option of buying wind power that is otherwise 'wasted' at night. I put 'wasted' in quotation marks because it happens as a result of keeping fossil fuel plants running at night, not because the clean energy production is actually greater than consumption.

My local utility is happy to sell me 'clean energy' at an inflated price, but my money does not buy extra production; the utility simply accounts me as one of the dedicated users of clean energy already on the grid. That be a scam.

 

It is basically the same thing sage.

 

What is the same ?

 

I really like and dislike the same things. At 6'-5" ... it's tough to get in (especially comparred to Prius headroom / leg room) and out of - and with the driver's seats all the way back, you only have a rear seat for groceries, basically. The lower roof is likely part of how GM got the drag coefficiency so low. All things in life . . . . tradeoff's.

.

 

OMG, Length/Exterior size of a vehicle and actual crash test results have nothing to do with EPA Vehicle Size Classification.

 

My assumption was, people want a balanced vehicle that is clean, efficient, affordable, midsize interior, normal weight, quick recharge time and EV/Gas hybrid powertrain that is used to full extend.

Your suggestion would require many compromises and that would defeat what's enabled by the advancement in technology.

Right, separation between science and politics. If petroleum independence is the goal, Prius v should get $7,500 tax credit as well. That'll allow SUV and minivan owners to right-size their rides easier than getting the Volt.

Studies have shown that hybrids and short range plugin hybrids brings the most bang for the buck if the goal is to save gasoline and lower GHG emission. It is not time to use the tax payer money to enable enthusiasts to enjoy electric joy rides, especially with the current cleanliness condition of our grid.

I think we should expand the current 2% hybrid market first by providing $3,000 incentive. That was proven to work in the US and now Japan. This will cut down the petroleum dependency while we clean up the grid.

Lithium will replace NiMH in the hybrids that are already selling in volume (due to previous incentive). Transit the $3,000 incentive to short range PHEVs. That will increase the Lithium production to massive scale. Once the short range PHEVs become mainstream, move up to longer range PEHVs. By now, the grid will be much cleaner and would not require the owners to buy additional solar panels or pay extra for green electricity.

I don't know but it is a good question to ask Toyota engineers. Ford is using 100km/h as top EV speed for the Energi plugins. Honda as well with their upcoming Accord plugin.

The better question is, why did GM pick 100 mph as top speed for Volt?

Why is this question so important to you? What are you trying to get at?

 

As someone who just made the switch, here were my factors:

1. Delivery Dates: I ordered my PiP on the first day, but the damned dealership didn't put my order in until the following day. I ended up with order #880 with a Mar/Apr production date. I wouldn't expect to see the car before the end of May. With CA's policy that you have to have the physical plate to get the HOV sticker, I would not be seeing carpool access until July / August.

The Volt however, I was able to grab an already built unit that was un-sold to a customer and will be taking delivery either in the last week of Feb, first week of march. That means that I will be able to get the HOV sticker 2-3 months earlier. With a 102 mile round trip commute, the HOV sticker will save ~2 hours PER DAY of being in the car. Over 2-3 months delta between the PiP and Volt, the choice was clear.

2. EV speed: I foresee a TON of backlash against PiP owners who are going to clog the HOV lane going under the speed limit. In CA, the highways are 65mph marked (but people generally travel 70-75). I can't imagine how upset people are going to be when PiP owners sit in that lane doing 62mph - not to mention road-rage, keying, etc. I didn't want to be one of those guys.

3. Free 240V charger: Volt program allows for a free charger + free install if you own your home in my zip code.

4. $11000 in tax credits: 7500 federal, 1500 in state + $2000 in home charger credits. These more than makeup for the 45k vs. 41k (loaded Volt vs. PiP advanced) price.

5. American made: I've always had german vehicles (3 audis, 2 porsches and a bmw currently). I felt it was time to start supporting the US economy.

Honestly for me... had the PiP been first to market I'd own one now, the HOV lane for my commute is the most important thing. I think that Toyota really screwed the proverbial pooch with their ordering system (dealers being able to screw up your place in line) and delivery timeframes.