Anyone waiting for PIP getting the "itch" to consider a Chevy Volt instead?

No, it is not a big deal especially when the gas engine needs constant exercise. On top of that, you paid for it so what's wrong using it?

Prius PHV battery size was designed to cover 50% of the daily miles. Less in the US and more in Japan. Europe being in the middle, averages to about 50% on plug power and 50% on gas around the globe.

A finely tuned and balanced plugin hybrid costs less and need less trade-offs.

Any more reasons why only the battery above 62 mph is better?

 

I really want to buy the Leaf, the issue for me is, I would then have to pay insurance and store 3 vehicles for 1 person. I have a 1994 suburban with a Fisher plow I use to clear my parking lot/200' driveway, it gets 10-12MPG, it has its purpose as a plow and for moving things with a trailer occasionaly, I also have the 2010 Prius, which I was hoping to trade in/sell, but with the Leaf's limited EV range, my backup would be taking out the 1994 Suburban that gets 12MPG and has 160,000 miles on it. I find it hard to give up the Prius, and given that, the Leaf would be a great commuter vehicle but not good for pretty much anything else, even visting my buddy in Portsmouth, NH is 75 highway miles, barely 1 way Leaf range.

I'm kind of torn between wanting go go all EV, and realizing at the same time, I really can't. If I trade in the 2010 Prius for a Leaf, I basiclly cannot go farther than 50-70 highway miles from home (reduced winter range due to temperature and heater usage), 1 way, and at that, I would need 6-7 hours to charge at my destination. It would be great for my 35 mile roundtrip commute, but its not good for longer distance travel. We'll likely never have DC Fast chargers on the east coast. I think at this point, even though I'd like to be an "early adopter" the way I usually am, its probably just best to sit on the sidelines. maybe wait for the Tesla Model S, and see what the real world range on the 160 and 240 miles versions are on colder climates... It's just so pricey, not sure its worthwhile (even if you can afford it). Might just sit it out until the next generation PHEV Prius, I already have the 2010, its the same generation as the PiP, the $20K it would take to upgrade to the PiP just doesn't seem like it will be worthwhile (I have a $20K offer on my 2010 Model V, the Advanced PiP is $40,350 or so), theres also sales tax and higher insurance to consider, and for what, another 15-20mpg on average... not worth the price of admision (to me)

 

Out of curiosity, I went over to Fuelly.com and counted up all of the Prius entries that got mileage roughly similar (42.9 MPG) or worse than I did driving my Volt in gas-only hybrid mode last year. The large majority of the 2001-2003 Prius cars did similar or worse. About 1/3 of the 2004-2009 2nd gen Prius cars did similar or worse. Only about 1/6 of the 2010-2011 3rd gen cars did similar or worse. Overall, the 2nd gen cars got around 45 MPG and the 3rd gen cars got just over 47. There are only a handful of Volt cars registered there and they are reporting total mpg, not hybrid-only.

Although I wish the Volt got better mileage, I think it is adequate and I realize some mileage was traded-off for increased battery size and weight and that some improvement is likely in the kind of tuning that comes in a future 2nd generation car. Since, I plan to drive 2/3 or more on battery the total gasoline consumption increase from 42 to 50'ish is not of overriding importance. Overall, the Volt trade-offs work well for me and I only get slightly less hybrid MPG than I did in my 2004 Prius (46 MPG).

 

Mitch,

I'm 6'2" and over 300 lbs. I had some trouble getting in the Volt on my first test drive but have worked out a technique that works for me. Once in I find it has more room in the front seats than many similarly sized cars. My wife drives it less frequently and still hits her head sometimes.

 

Funny how you bash the volt for carrying the engine weight then say its fine for a PHV to use it cause it has it.

And a well designed engine does not need constant exercise.. Volt only needs to run it for 10 min every 45 days or so. By running ICE 62mph you increase emissions, waste gas and take away the possibility of running on all renewable power for the vast majority of the time. Also EV feels good.

 

It is not bashing but a point of view. I was responding to the view that Prius PHV does not give a full EV experience above 62 mph so the $4k plugin premium is not worth it. I requested to view it from the entire car purchase. If you buy a hybrid with two power sources, you ought to use them equally (when each shines), else you are not utilizing it to the full extend.

Does it matter if Prius PHV uses ICE 42 seconds once in a while or Volt uses ICE 10 minutes straight every 6 weeks? Ultimately, both vehicles require a new tank of gas every year. To be accurate, Prius PHV owner manual asks for half a tank of new gas every 6 months. Volt will ask you to burn the entire tank of gas if you don't use it in a year. Will it do that when you are stopping at the red light? How many hours will it take to empty the entire tank? Do you stop recharging for those days?

Prius PHV uses gas when you need more power with purpose. Volt uses it even when you DON'T need it, to maintain.

That may be true for the dirty 37 MPG Volt engine. Per EPA, Volt's gas engine would emit 299 g/mi. That includes all upstream emissions converted into CO2 equivalent. Use the "Show" dropdown box to show the upstream emission.

2010 eGrid data includes CO2e for the grid electricity. Volt running on grid electricity would emit 212 grams of CO2e per mile. So, there is incentive to use electricity first for the Volt since electricity is 41% cleaner.

50 MPG Atkinson ICE is very clean and it would emit 222 grams of CO2e per mile. That's within 5% difference of the Volt running on electricity.

You failed to acknowledge the superior refueling speed of gasoline and it's energy density. That makes gasoline a preferred fuel for high speed long distance. Draining renewable electricity in 15 minutes at high speed and 10-12 hours to recharge it, become a nuisance.

Prius PHV also provides a choice to blend or store electricity at high speed. If you are looking for highway EV purity, Prius PHV is not for you. However, if you know the advantages and disadvantages of both fuels and accept the synergy between both, Prius PHV is for you.

Any more reasons why using only the battery above 62 mph is better? So far we have two:

1) Saves some gas (but use more electricity)
2) Feels good

 

This line of reasoning is like saying you should use your heater and air conditioner half the time, you must turn on your windshield wipers half the time etc...

 

No, it's not tunnel vision: it's the fact that the programming and engineering decisions made mean that the driver's ability to choose not to burn gasoline is limited. If I cannot choose when to use EV I cannot minimize gasoline use.

You can't simply say "buy a BEV" because it doesn't take many trips beyond the range to make a BEV unworkable practically or financially. Once you need an ICE then the best you can do is PHEV and then if you want to minimize gasoline consumption or maximize the quiet and smooth ride of EV you don't want the car to stop you taking advantage of your knowledge that it doesn't have.

If you think that the 62mph limitation is just due to a carefully calculated ICE v electric motor efficiency trade off, I think you're naive. I think it's much simpler than that:
Japanese speed limit = 100km/h
100/1.609 = 62.15mph

 

Fixed that for you. We are not talking about the necessary accessories but the powertrain itself. Powertrain is supposed to move the car, not sit as a dead weight especially when the car weights more than an SUV.

When you need it, you use it. It is as simple as that. When it rains, use the wipers. If it is cold, use the heater. If it is hot, use the A/C. When you need full power, use all the engines you've got.

We have Volt owners not using the heater to prevent burning gas. They lug the gas engine and the gas tank around to ease the range anxiety attacks which leads to gasoline usage anxiety. The range anxiety is not about the range but about refueling speed (or the lack of). If you can recharge the battery in a few mins, the 35 miles EV range wouldn't give you the anxiety. If you use gasoline regularly when it is beneficial, you wouldn't have gasoline anxiety.

 

I don't see how this statement makes any sense. It's there so you must use it daily? I certainly don't think of it that way. I got a Volt to use as a pure EV 90% of my miles, and only use the gas engine when I have to go out of town, and to be able to meet my needs with a single car. Yes, most of the time I'm carrying around a gas engine as useless dead weight. So what? The dead weight is reflected in whatever efficiency penalty it extracts, which to me was acceptable (94 MPGe vs. 99 MPGe of the Leaf), given that I'd only have to keep one car and was improving my gas mileage on my long distance driving (not having a Prius already, only an old 33 MPG Honda). I'm using a lot less gas than if I had waited for the PHV, since my daily driving is 2x-3x the PHV's EV range, and my longer trips are relatively rare and only constitute 10% of my driving.

What's the MPGe of the PHV at 65 mph when it still has charge left? The Volt is getting some 93 MPGe highway; what is the PHV gas & electric consumption at this speed? Using gas lowers the MPGe and is less efficient than pure EV, isn't it? The use of the gas isn't "inherently better", it's a (perfectly reasonable) design choice to allow the use of a smaller, cheaper battery, which gets you a cost advantage and cargo space advantage. But I don't see how it's "more efficient" to use gas, unless you are claiming the MPGe is higher, in which case I await more detailed test results from EPA and the various mags when the PHV is released.

Although the Volt display says the ICE might run 10 minutes, in practice it only runs 2-3 minutes and consumes about 0.06 gallons. And this only if you've taken zero trips outside your CD range for a very long time. So we are talking half a gallon per year for the Volt maintenance mode maximum, which many users never hit, and even those of us with 90+% EV usage may only hit once or twice a year. So whether the Prius's usage is significant depends on how much it is. If it's say 0.05 gallons, daily, that's like 18 gallons a year, so it kind of is significant.

I don't see how this is relevant. What percent of Volt owners do you think will hit fuel maintenance mode? 0.5% maybe? Don't you think those owners can be clever enough to just put one gallon in so they don't burn through an entire tank unnecessarily?

A completely insignificant amount of gas, once a year?

You like to harp on charging time. Given that we all have to sleep, and that our Volts are fully charged in the morning, we think this is a total non-factor, not a nuisance at all. The car gets plugged in when we get home, unplugged when we leave. It makes no difference to the user whether the car stopped charging at 2:00 in the morning or 6:00 in the morning.

We think electricity is cheaper & cleaner than gas, and domestically sourced, so that's reason enough.

 

Consider the two charts below. 38 kW battery power can cover perhaps 90% of the power demands. The remaining 10% can still use electricity but blended with gas. The point is, you can choose 90% of the time. You made it sound like 90% is a disappointment and expressed the urgent need to squeeze out the remaining 10%.

How much gas will you save from the remaining 10%? Volt's 3X full battery pack has equivalent energy of a gallon of gas. High power demands are best left for the gas engine.

US national speed limit was set at 55 mph for a reason. It was set to reduce fuel consumption a year after the 1973 oil crisis. Aerodynamics beyond that speed consumes more than half of the total loss. With the cost of the battery (size and weight) and the recharging speed, it does not make sense to use battery power beyond 55-62 mph. I would like to as well.... when the battery technology improves.

Considering the above charts, it is a great trade off. You know it is a balanced trade off because the 50 MPG and the midsize interior is maintained.

 

Oh, 55-62mph. And that upper limit of 62mph has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the speed limit in Japan is 62mph. Nothing. It's absolutely not a decision based on marketing to buyers in their primary market.

 

+1

 

I have no idea how much gas I'll save during my commute, but it should be zero gallons vs. x gallons. Zero is always better.

Frankly the Leaf would work for me for most of my usage and for trips we could use the second car. I drove the leaf and like the Volt's feel better, and I just can't get over the Leaf's looks. IMO it's really ugly.

 

What is the difference between using gas for out of town vs. using gas for full power acceleration? Why is one acceptable and the other is not?

Volt has 111kW motor and battery to cover maximum power demand. Do you know how many kW (hp) do you use on regular basis? I have measured/logged mine with the Torque app. I rarely use more than 22 kW (30hp on graph). That includes acceleration to 70 mph and inclines at highway speeds.

The point is, Volt's electric motor and battery power is over-sized. Prius PHV has it right-sized.

If you are looking for a specific case, that'll lead to cherry picking. Prius PHV overall is expected to be 95 MPGe in battery discharging mode. I think.... in the city, it could be as high as 168 MPGe (200 Wh/mi) and highway with gas usage drags the entire test cycles down to 95 MPGe.

Keep in mind, that's only the vehicle efficiency. You need to include fuel production to get the total energy efficiency. Using gas at 50 MPG is 95% as clean and efficient as Volt running on grid electricity. It is not as bad as you make out to be.

The way Volt owners harp on Prius PHV gas usage for full acceleration, the entire tank is a very significant amount of gas.

Why do Volt owners install the 4 hours charger then? There is an anxiety associated with the slow recharge rate and being left with a 37 MPG garage queen.

Yea, Volt running on grid electricity is about 41% cleaner than it's 37 MPG gas engine. Overall, with 2/3 EV and 1/3 gas owner average miles, Volt is not as clean as the 50 MPG no-plug Prius running on gas.

Don't forget, gas is also partially domestically sourced.

 

We won't know for sure. I am not suggesting it had nothing to do with their speed limit. Are you suggesting that it was the reason?

European often use 0-100 km/h acceleration test as well. Why stop measuring speed at 100 km/h? Does that mean the decision was based on the European market? We can speculate all day long. I was just pointing out that there are reasons for the speed limits and how it relates to the efficiency (or the loss of).

 

Not a GM enthusiast here, but EV purity is my goal. If Toyota had built a pure EV any time before I finally got my Tesla, I'd have bought it in a heartbeat.

All this talk about which car is "best" misses the point that they are very different designs, optimized for very different circumstances. There is really no "best" here. It depends on your needs.

I think the word "but" is out of place. For anyone who can afford it and who doesn't need the space or towing capability of a larger car, the Tesla is the pinnacle of automotive engineering.

I sure hope nobody is going to test this out on the public roadways!

The complexity of the Volt and consequent reduced reliability, is in my opinion one of its great shortcomings, along with truly poor mpg and pollution in CS mode.

This statement mystifies me. I get far more from knowing that I'm burning no gasoline at all in my Tesla, and previously in my Xebra, than I ever got from 99 mpg in the Prius.

Maybe it will be hard on either of the cars in the thread title, but my car is designed for exactly that, whether it's driven 3 miles or 200 miles.

 

Isn't it FUD? You are uncertain about the quantity. Doubt the gas carbon footprint. Fear the use of both fuels. I have provided well-to-wheel CO2 numbers but I can't quantify your gas usage. The fear is also for you to overcome.

If you can achieve zero gallon with the Volt, congrats -- you've overpaid the gas powertrain. It is deceptive to claim you'll use zero gallons with the Volt because you know you will not.

I think you are looking at using a little gas with Volt vs. a little more with Prius PHV. If you list the advantages of using a little more gas, the list will be longer.

1) Lighter car
2) More fuel efficient in hybrid mode
3) Lower price
4) More interior volume
5) Less complexity (no clutches, no liquid battery cooling, etc..)
6) Faster to complete a full charge
7) Uses less electricity
8) Etc...

Advantages of using battery over 62 mph:

1) Uses less gas (one gallon = 3 full charge for Volt)
2) Feels good

 

Understanding the overall PiP design is useful and it certainly explains the trade-offs.

PiP = large market 3rd gen plugin =  less expensive = smaller battery = blended EV
Volt = 1st gen of new design space = full power EV = larger battery = more expensive

Blended EV is a marketing and engineering trade-off resulting from using a smaller battery which was done to hold down cost, fit the battery in an existing space, and leverage an existing widely sold vehicle.

For some reason, you feel compelled to make up abstract philosophical explanations.

I've haven't seen any studies or credible calculations showing that blended EV is significantly more efficient at utilizing gasoline than a non-plug Prius with its 300 Wh of usable battery buffering. I suspect that future Toyota plugins with sufficiently large batteries will be EREVs and by default will postpone using gasoline until the full usable grid charge has been depleted.

There are two scenarios here. The first is "engine maintenance" which the PiP apparently does every 125 or so miles and the Volt does every 6 weeks if the engine hasn't been used.

For both the PiP and Volt the engine maintenance warmup time is a function of starting and ending coolant temperature. The PiP will almost certainly take longer than 42 seconds in winter. The Volt engine warm up is commonly reported by owners as 1-2 minutes most of the year and 4-5 in winter. The 10 minutes is a maximum timeout period. I don't have any personal experience with this even though I've driven the Volt for 14 months and 17,000 miles.

As for fuel maintenance, the answer is that nobody knows for sure because this scenario almost never happens. The Volt keeps track of the gasoline age for the tiny number of cases in which this might happen so that the fuel lines won't get gummed up and require repair. The best understanding at the moment is that the Volt will simply run in "hybrid mode" and maintain the battery SOC while using gasoline as the source of fuel just like it normally does when the battery SOC falls to around 20%. The driver display will contain a notice that the car is in Fuel Maintainance Mode. I think it's very unlikely that the Volt will waste gas by running the engine while at a stop light.

As I understand it, the PiP does not keep track of fuel age itself and it is up to the driver to remember to refresh the fuel every 6 months.

Anyone driving a Volt obviously knows that gasoline is superior at high speed refueling for long distance driving. Your forum posts would be more credible if you stopped using absurdly misleading comparisons. The "15 minutes" represents driving at 85+ MPH. The 10-12 hour recharge time is at 120V at 12A rather than 3.5-4.0 hours at 240V.

Apparently you don't know that the Volt 120V charge cord can be set to charge at 8A so you should really be quoting a recharge time of 15-18 hours.

Of course, a maximum 10 hours or so to recharge the battery doesn't matter if you recharge overnight while you are asleep. Having a larger battery capacity will make this the normal routine for most Volt owners. Some will recharge 8 hours at work during the day at 120V, but most daytime charging will probably be done at 240V in under 4 hours. The charge rate of the PiP and Volt is the same although the total time is shorter for PiP because it has less battery capacity. 

The key distinction here with the PiP is that the Volt will only normally use gasoline when you exceed your battery range. Many Volt owners will drive entirely within this range most or all of the year. That's why they will buy the car. Most will only use gas on unusual occasions except for long distance trips. If a Volt owner wants to tempt fate and drive at 85 MPH (or a more likely 70 MPH) to work they may well be able to do that within their battery range. The PiP will burn gas because of its small battery and transmission engineering trade-offs.

Some of your assumptions are based on the use of U.S. average electricity fuel sources. However, many (most?) Volt and PiP owners will likely be initially concentrated in states that have cleaner than average electricity by default or have renewable energy options available at a reasonable price. Some will also have solar installations. About half of the 100+ people who attended a local LEAF owners meeting in the SF Bay Area that I attended raised their hands when asked if they already have solar PV installed at their homes.

 

You asked a question:

Originally Posted by usbseawolf2000
"So for you, it is about saving a little more gas on your commute, compared to Prius PHV. How much gas will you save?"


I answered:

Originally Posted by San_Carlos_Jeff
"I have no idea how much gas I'll save during my commute, but it should be zero gallons vs. x gallons. Zero is always better."

No FUD.
Will I use more gas on trips in a Volt vs. a Prius? Yes.
Is the Volt interior smaller? Yes.
Do I like the Volt better than the Prius? Yes.
All these things, and much more, go into the calculations when getting a new car. I've owned a Prius for 6.5 years now and want something different. For my driving pattern the Volt will use less gas, period. I have no idea if it will cause less CO2 and never claimed one way or the other, I've been following this thread with some enjoyment and thought I'd chime in with some specific answers to specific questions.

-Jeff