NEW!!! Service Bulletin for Engine Knocking at Startup T-SB 0012-10

Why is everyone acting as if this is the only car in the world that may have rare cold engine start problems? Quite far from it. I have experienced it once or twice. It is startling, but not something to panic over. It is not disabling the engine and only lastes a few seconds.

I doubt I will pursue the TSB. Sounds like Toyota is doing what is right for their customers. If you cant get it to do it at the dealer, then you need to start documenting it every time it happens and have a good record to make your case. Once or twice in 40k+ miles over two and a half winters is not a problem in my way of thinking.

 

Two things I have discovered with my car:

As JDCollins mentioned above I can make the vibration stop by pushing the throttle to the floor as soon as it starts vibrating, with a Prius this does not cause the engine to rev very much. This is a quicker way to make the vibrations stop than pushing the Power button.

The other thing I have discovered, when it is cold, starting the engine as soon as the Ready light comes on by pushing the throttle down and not waiting for the 15 second delay seems to eliminate the problem completely. This, of course, has nothing to do with the 15 second delay but, I think, the extra air that goes in due the the open or partly open throttle plate prevents the vibration from starting.

As I said these things work on my car and they are certainly worth a try if you have the problem. If it works for you it might be a lot less stressful than fighting it out with your dealer and Toyota's customer no-service.

 

I reported this with my dealer last January when it initially happened. I called the same dealer (largest in PA...you can figure out who) recently and since it was recorded last year (and I spoke with the same service manager), they will honor the TSB and perform the work. They have the new manifold, but not the gasket which they estimate they will get in a week or two. I scheduled to have the work performed on my car on February 13th. When I get it back, I will let you all know if its been successful.

 

Just because you haven't yet experienced it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't occur above 40ºF. Many who've reported it here(me included) live in very warm regions and have mentioned that their cold soak temperatures prior to this misfiring were well above the minimum Toyota mandates in this TSB. I think this temperature requirement was included simply to reduce the number of owners qualifying for the expensive intake manifold replacement.

Toyota would never have issued this TSB if this anomaly was harmless to the ICE. If that were the case they would have just simply mailed out or posted a customer advisory saying 'not to worry, it's normal'.

Since Toyota reports such vast numbers coming off several of its assembly lines with the affected intake manifold this should instead have been a general recall.

 

I agree. Customers who have been able to get this TSB approved just from a phone call away are those who've documented it to their dealer on a regular basis (i.e., squeaky wheels who'd only get louder if they refuse). Those who want to go in cold will likely face an uphill battle.

Sucks you don't live in a state that enforces the California Emission Warranty, but you make it sound like the knocking is common, which it isn't. Start documented it to your dealer whenever it happens and you will get the grease.

 

That's simply not true. The vast majority of TSBs are not safety-related issues or have anything to do with harming the car. They're just like software updates to fix the various bugs, whether or not they're actually damaging to the car.

 

Toyota would never have engineered and manufactured a new intake manifold if this anomaly was merely a harmless rare annoyance. They issue TSBs for recognition and replacement of badly engineered components or those that have or will fail. It will not surprise me to eventually learn of ICE or related power train failure in high mileage Gen III models. I also suspect that this will come to light in Consumer Report's annual reliability tables reflecting those affected model years.

 

Again, that's false. Lots of TSBs cover harmless rare annoyances and have nothing to do with components that will fail. Look them up if you don't believe me. And don't confuse them with mandated safety recalls.

 

Or a large sewing machine.

Of course they can't, but you knew that unfortunately and I'm sure they didn't care to try and reproduce properly (which is hard even when tried).

Thanks, so this affirms at least for you two that my earlier statement about this TSB being basically useless is quite accurate.

 

I said earlier the 40 F temp was dubious to me. And it is--it's wrong. Here's my proof:

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii...304-2010-rattling-in-engine-bay-start-up.html

That was reported on July 9, 2010. Using historical temperature from http://www.almanac.com/weather/history the temp that earlier morning didn't get below mid or high 60's.

So the start can certainly occur in temperatures well above 40 F.

 

There are at least two members here who were able to get this TSB approved just through a phone call (especially if they've documented the issue with the dealer on a regular basis).

It may be useless if you try to go in cold, but not if you're diligent about documenting the issue.

 

What I've said is factual... and you've been denying or minimizing this now proven engineering flaw since it was first reported here. The fact that Toyota has 'qualified' this TSB for only those who cold soaked at 40º or below and that the manifold replacement won't be performed unless local technicians can reproduce the hammering upon startup says a bundle! Incidentally, Bob Wilson's prescient poll here on PC clearly illustrated that this flaw was not rare at all.

 

Can't hurt. Honestly, it doesn't bother me that much at all. If Toyota is destroying its own engine (probably not), they can fix it later

 

I wasn't talking about this TSB per se, but your general statement that they issue TSBs for recognition and replacement of badly engineered components or those that have or will fail, which simply isn't true. Some TSBs are nothing more than software updates to improve the operation of said component or feature and aren't an indication that they will fail.

I'm not denying or minimizing that this is a real issue for those who have experienced the problem. You can't use a non-scientific poll to determine whether or not a flaw is rare, but as others have shown, it's difficult to reproduce on demand as this requires just the right conditions for the issue to occur (similar to the grabby brakes when in reverse gear problem).

 

^I still get that grabby break issue rather frequently, and it is frustrating! Was there a TSB issued for that?

Back to the topic, I didn't see much point in originally reporting the occurrence last year at my dealership because it was a one-off event but perhaps I should have in hindsight so that at least the new dealership would have had the evidence that I did (still wouldn't have done much good since they wanted to reproduce it themselves).

You're not bothered with warranty concerns? I can easily see them telling you to get lost if you're beyond 3 years/36k.

Incidentally, last night dropped to the mid30s again and I interrupted another warmup at around 10:30 p.m. 12 hours later (temp around 43F), I started her up and didn't get the rattle or knock, so it is very much a luck of the draw.

 

Some of us are lucky enough to live in a state that enforces the California Emission Warranty and are warrantied to 15 years/150k.

But for you, keep squeaking and you'll get the grease

 

Wow, are you saying that extends the powertrain warranty to 15 years?

 

The powertrain warranty is 5 years/60k for everybody. The intake manifold, if it blows up, is covered to 15 years/150k if you live in a state that enforces the California Emission Warranty (except in Pennsylvania and Washington where it's in effect for 7 years/70k).

 

OK, so that's considered an emissions component. If it took the engine with it, that would of course fall back on the powertrain. I need to review all the associated warranty periods. I know one ends at 36k miles/3 years. Found a nice summation here: http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/warranty.html (36k being the basic).

 

I'd say if you document the problems with the dealer (and recorded in your service history) and they refused to perform the necessary TSB and the MI blows up along with the engine, you've got a very good case getting them to replace the whole thing.