Toyota Prius c: 53 MPG city / 46 MPG Hwy; Under $19,000

Sorry about that. I meant Prius and the platform. I'd expect it to share a lot of the hybrid system engineering with the Prius, not just the engine. To me, that means that although it's a new vehicle it's not going to need radical new tooling.

In contrast, to avoid EU import tariffs and keep costs down for lower-volume vehicles they're assembling into gliders at the existing manufacturing plants (Auris, Yaris, RAV4). I don't know whether part of the EU strategy is that hiding the hybrid makes it easier to sell there.

 

uh no, it definitively does not mean new designation... it clearly said 70% of the engine, it didnt mention HSD in that context (except that is new).

 

yes, but it does not share the platform with the Prius.. it shares actually nothing with the Prius except for the fact both are HSD.

This is not Prius based vehicle. It is based on Verso-s/Ractis, which has nothing to do with Prius, and it got its own interior/exterior, in usual Toyota fashion.

Reason for offering Yaris HSD and Auris HSD is due to high Yen and import tarrifs, local production, which already exists for Yaris and Auris, is going to be considerably cheaper.

Not only that, in Europe, it is common for car to have many engine options. And Toyota has plan to offer HSD in every vehicle they sell. So expect them all to have HSD option, sooner or later, mostly sooner .

 

The only thing that has come out that is different is moving the heater block hole. I know what it clearly says, but I don't think anyone from toyota ever said this in english. Perhaps I should be a little more direct. I do not think the engine has changed 70%, and all of the changes discussed in the press have to do with non-engine components. These non-engine, but engine related items are ehr and cooled egr, while dropping the thermos for heat storage - reflecting changes made from gen II to gen III. The two MGs and psd were also changed.

With both the 1NZ-FXE and 2ZR-FXE Toyota made a big deal of the release and changes, compared to their fe counterparts. They clearly stated what was changed and what this improved. On the change from 1NZ-FXE 2004 to 1NZ-FXE 2012 they didn't even change a letter. If anyone knows what changes were made, I would like to know also.

 

It is a good idea to substitute the MPG robbing short trip miles with electricity. However, it is not a good idea to substitute high speed highway miles (or high power acceleration) with a slow charging electricity (relative to gas fill-up). Prius PHV will benefit most to the family with many short trips and long weekend drives. Prius c is great for the affordability and to those don't need the extra room.

Why do you think EPA conversion (to MPGe?) is low?

 

Can you post some pictures for those outside the Europe? I have never seen a Verso-s, inside or outside. If you can include pics of Yaris to compare, it would be a bonus.

 

Blending reduces cost, complexity, weight and also prevent those wild EV range swings. This means you get pretty consistent battery power left to use when you need it. In addition, you'll be able to manage it with the EV/HV button which add more fun to the equation.

Prius c would have a limited energy in the battery to manage (on top of the excellent job HSD already does) but it is more for the first time hybrid owners to get started with the game.

 

PHV works for me. My local trips/commutes are well within its range, and I take long highway trips at least once per month. I'll be all electric on what has been my very lowest (cold start) mileage. I'll have better than Volt mpg on the highway. My electric miles will be more efficient than Volt electric miles. I can save my EV range for the tail end of highway trips. It costs less than a Volt.

While I was raised in a GM family, I got over it with Celebrity and Cavalier and bailouts and lies.

All that said, I will be paying more in TCO than with my Prius for the PHV. It fits my needs about perfectly. But for those who drive longer commutes and less highway trips, I cannot criticize their choice of Volt over PHV where it fits their driving better, even though it has higher TCO and comes from GM. That is their reasonable choice just as PHV is mine.

 

I'm not so sure of "of course the truth", after some speculation rises over those idiots testing a Tesla model that "ran out of juice" without being actually depleted. Not a trustful program, is it?

 

I don't understand why one would be a good substitute but not the other. Shouldn't there be some factor X such that if X *EV miles/kwh > ICE miles/gallons. Now the EPA has chosen 33.7 kwh/gallon, which is an estimate of its energy. You have often stated that the volts CD mpge should be less than the prius, which means you must think this number is less than 18kwh/gallon. YMMV and driving should be considered on this, which may be why EPA has come up with 5 different tests, unfortunately we don't know the numbers from any of them for the phv yet, and like the volt it probably will only go through the old city and highway tests.

Features, handling, acceleration, NVH, etc as well as price need also be considered. I would not assume that because a car does well in a Japanese test, that it will do well in america. I would prefer an objective equivalance number to, volt is too heavy, too small, too fast, etc. That is quite a good reason why you may not like it, and as such is valid for you, but not for generalizations.

It is a simple measure of plug or pump efficiency. IMHO oil dependance carries with it higher costs and should be assigned lower utility. The DOE tries to do this and picks 83 kwh/gallon. I certainly understand there are many ways to skin this cat, and broud disagreement. For example, I'm sure there is a pennsyvania congressman that would choose 0kwh/gallon Others seem to think it is infinite kwh/gallon, these are the pure ev politicians. CO2 from coal from the ground compared to CO2 from the pump seems to be a lower bound for non-politicians.

Priced the way the prius phv, and prius c are anyone using a number lower than 18kwh/gallon will pick the prius c, or at higher speeds the prius. But likely they will just choose a camry and say screw it, its efficient enough. To me the prius c and prius phv are much better choices to reduce oil consumption.

 

Verso-s is small MPV based on Yaris... It is a bit like Prius vs Prius v, but they actually share less details. It is pretty expensive since it is produced in Japan only. Its wheelbase and lenght are half size bigger than Yaris, and exactly the same size of Prius c.














One thing that Toyota does well is to hide that its cars share anything with each other .
So yeah, I am against idea that Toyota went all out to cheapen out the Prius c - they developed it smartly, giving it its own indentity for global market, to become one of its major sellers worldwide, while of course making it as affordable as possible. But it is not based on Prius at all, and it is half class higher than Yaris, and close to Corolla in interior, which will be plain to see for anyone who actually sits in both cars (Yaris and Prius c) in real life.

 

Sorry, austin. Come back to earth. I am at lost what you are trying to say.

We don't know what MPGe the Prius PHV would get in the city with all electric miles. I think it would get 118 MPGe which would equal to 39 MPGe WTW (118 x 0.328). So if your short trip is going to get less than 47 MPG with gas (39 MPGe WTW) then the subsitution is worth it

 

In early December I drove my Volt for a week without plugging in to see what kind of mileage I would get. I drove over 200 miles and got 41-42 mpg in a 40/60 mix of city/highway driving. That's typical of good hybrid mileage when excluding the 50 mpg Prius models which are over-achievers.

From a back-of-the-envelope calculation, you'd have to be driving a Volt over 90 mph to deplete the battery in 15 minutes. Maybe that will disappoint autobahn drivers but they won't likely be impressed with a Prius either.
Around 35 minutes at an average speed of 65 mph would be much more typical in urban US driving and likely Volt owners would be running off the battery for the entire trip.

 

"Around 35 minutes at an average speed of 65 mph would be much more typical in urban US driving in the summer."

Fixed that for ya

 

Just trying to get you to work though some numbers, and stop your emotional argument. You did answer with some numbers.

Wholey snikeys. Lets take your numbers - 0.328*33.7kwh/gallons*47/39 = 13.3kwh/gallon. I'm sure it makes sense your your mind, and has something to do with co2.

If that is your trade off, why would you ever choose the phv? I assume that the phv still has the price premium. HOw many gallons of gas can you honestly save if a kwh has such a little trade off?

 

Let's try this:

Around 35 minutes at an average speed of 65 mph in a Volt would be much more typical in highway driving (under the same weather conditions that would yield 15 miles of all electric range during city driving in a PiP).

 

Since the gloating has been about performance well in excess of 65, especially since Volt use direct-drive at speeds faster, I'd like to see actual real-world data.

Like at 70 MPH, how long does it last? And don't forget depletion resulting from the drive to highway, because Volt here doesn't offer a HOLD mode. That's what happens in the real-world. Napkin numbers often forget those details.

It's like trying to predict what consumers will really pounce on Prius c when it becomes available. Will those $$$ scribbles about hybrid value vary from what people actually do? Only real-world data tells the true story. Outcome is quite difficult to estimate.
.

 

118 MPGe (285 wh/mile) is still very conservative for low speed city driving. It should be 200 - 250 wh/mile (134 - 168 MPGe). Short trips with gas can get as little as 25 MPG so there is much to gain with electricity substitution.

Plus those with cleaner than average electricity can take advantage of the 15 EV miles.

 

Yet, the average is 35 MPG on voltstats.net.

I drove my Prius from New York to Boston with one rest stop and got 60 MPG. It was realistically achieveable but not a norm.

 

I'm in favor of realistic comparisons based on consistent conditions under typical and expected usage patterns.

I haven't seen anyone develop a detailed and carefully measured chart of electric range estimates for the Volt. My 65 mph example is based on personal experience driving at 55, 60, and 65 mph where I see ranges of 45, 42, and 39 miles in mild temperatures and minimal climate control use.

A more comprehensive chart has been published for LEAF drivers. The LEAF is a bit more efficient at lower speeds and the Volt is better at higher speeds (above 50 or so). Given those limitations, you can get a rough idea by looking up the LEAF estimate and dividing by 2 (LEAF has approximately 21 kWh of available battery vs. 10.4 for the Volt). For example, a LEAF at 55 mph has a range of 89 miles. Divided by 2 that gives 44.5 miles.

You can find the LEAF chart at Range-Speed-Bars Thumb Rule Table.