Toyota Prius c: 53 MPG city / 46 MPG Hwy; Under $19,000

i clearly remember many people here posting how not to expect miracles, myself included, because we knew both aero and size of the engine meant that it will be less efficient on the highway.

Looking at reactions on the internet, where everyone is focusing on 53 MPG and sub 19k price, i think Toyota made extremely good choice.

This is not PR show car - you know one that is announced then it sells 10k copies a year, if that. This is car that will sell a minimum of 300,000 copies a year, world wide. Thats 10x what Ford produced hybrids in 2011 .

 

well they clearly did not have special version - rather they found an issue in the car and fixed it, which lowered the MPG of the vehicle.

Remember how Prius cant have solar roof and all the tech options from V, as it will bring its total lower? So it is rather obvious they cant just use any model to test, but it is specific to what models they actually sell in what numbers.

 

True, but that does not mean necessarily "cheaper" and/or "faster".

Though the public service here is quite good and pervasive, to go to the office it would take me a minimum of 45-55 mins, door-to-door and if all goes well (there are *very* often 10-20 mins delays), to get to the office (which lies just outside the city).
With the car (and since using the TomTom Go Live 1000 with HD Traffic, I must say), 25-30mins at most, consistently every day.

Costs? I need a car in any case, so I did not include in my estimations fixed costs (insurance/taxes/maintenance/purchase) which I would have to pay even if the car was lying in the garage all day. So I am only considering fuel costs and this is where the city MPG is, for me, really important and a determining factor in getting a Prius, rather than a "city car" (I wanted/needed a bigger car in any case).

Public transportation costs: with "job-ticket" (10% discount on regular fare) on a monthly subscription, 41,85€
Prius, at current fuel prices (about 1,5€/L): 49€
So overall I am paying 96€/year more than using public transportation. I think that is worth paying, considering the time I am not wasting and the freedom of leaving/going to the office, whenever I want.
Sure, if it were cheaper/faster, I would maybe have changed my buying strategy, but I did my calculations in advance, and I can also tell you the daily frustration of never really knowing how much it would take to get "there".

BTW, going public would mean leaving my Prius rotting in the garage, increasing its cost/km.
So, using public transportation to me makes sense only if, according to trip time and ease of parking, you do not have a fuel efficient car (say 6+L/100km in city), or you don't own a car at all.

 

at least here it is hard to use only public transportation... going to work and back yes, but for so many other tasks, like grocery store, other stores, banks, kindergarden, etc, it would be major hassle to use only public transportation.

 

I used math
100/(55/53 + 45/46). I punched it into my phone when originally posted, then just checked in excel. And again you only have 2 significant figures, so worse, than prius liftback, but in digits that are not significant. Just stop arguing about it.

Of course there were. I won't post all the press from the whispers, but here's a toyota press release.
Toyota | 2012 Toyota Prius PHV Media Preview - Bob Carter

Fail again. They said it to american press and in articles quoting american tests. They even pimped the foreign numbers without adding the EPA is likely to be significantly lower, so we see things like US 61mpg estimates after those japan tests. Expectations were set high by Toyota. In the recent press releases and copy they are stressing city mpg, and have dropped combined. hmmmm.

Styling, handling, power have been complaints by the automotive press for years. Some have liked the styling though. The gen III helped with power, but its still low for the class. I'm hopeful but certainly not convinced that the prius c worked on handling.

 

It would be faster and more efficient with the genIII engines and motors. The sentence was meant as sarcasm, hence the smileys.

+1

That's the tradeshow talk. The insight also had people focusing on cost. This will do better than the insight, but that was clearly the target. It is a better hybrid after all

 

Nothing wrong with pointing out the formula is backwards. The fraction was reversed. 55% of 53 MPG is 53/55.

That's what the press release said. Where's the detail supposedly provided? Read what they release, not what the others hype.
.

 

well no, not in the city it wouldnt be more efficient, and yes, it is the same as with every small/large car comparo.

as to the tradeshow talk, no, but reactions from internet users were positive, while usually they are negative.

Yaris would also be more efficient with Corolla's 1.8l engine. And it would be quicker too.
But then it would be priced as Corolla.

 

I'll try it more slowly this time since you seem to think its important. The epa uses the formula 55% of the distance in city, 45% on the highway. Let us try dimensional analysis and use 55 miles in the city, 45 miles on the highway. You can not simply average out mpg figures in some arbitrary way. If you are using time instead of distance, you must also use mph to get to a figure.

now to get gallons used it is

(55 miles)/(53 miles/gallon) + (45 miles)/(46 miles/gallons) = 2.016 gallons for 100 miles.

Now we take
(100 miles)/ (2.016 gallons) = 49.603 miles/gallon and this happens to be different than your number.

Now we only have 2 significant figures so we round this to 50mpg. Toyota has not provided us with details on if it is 52.6 or 53.4, so we should not assume that we have this information and report greater precision than was given. Software may change this number before the official number is announced. It could easily be 49 or 51, which is common in the industry.

But I am not arguing what the meaning of is is as you seem to be. Toyota clearly told the press that it would be the best mileage. The source is toyota, and the press didn't always quote the source. You seem to have a different much lower standard for them. Just stop with the parsing of language. All the car companies do it.

 

Toyota lowered friction on the 1.8L engine in the gen III. Looking at the bsfc graph the 1.8 would be more efficient. Toyota may have changed the 1.5 is such away that this would be different, but the mpg reported is not that way. The car is also under-powered for most american driving habits, making real world driving get into inefficient modes more often even in city driving. This may be different for the Japanese market.

The ones I read where negative on fuel economy positive on styling and price. Let's wait until someone tests it, and see if toyota improved the handling compared to the bigger liftback. That was the other thing they were touting.

Yeah, yaris in the US is much faster than this car. hyundai is putting more powerful engines in that class. This may lead to toyota making the 1.5L engine more powerful and efficient. I don't think it would add much to the price, certainly less than most upgrades.

 

Citation need.

Toyota | Toyota Prius c Provides a Subcompact Entry Point to Prius Family of Hybrid Vehicles

November release and all they're saying is "most efficient in the city". Earlier I pretty sure I read that they were aiming for it to be the most efficient. It's not, not by a long chalk.

8.5 feet is a pretty long chalk. However it's not much difference in miles per gallon.

It may be the case that in fact it is more efficient, but that the EPA city and highway numbers are rounded. I certainly expect the CAFE numbers to be more efficient. But, Toyota has been very careful in the US press releases not to be promise better fuel economy.

 

How does the city mpg doesnt show it is more economical when it clearly does show - 53 is better than 51 last time I checked.

Similarly, I dont expect difference in speed to be noticable due to lower weight... So far we know Prius c does 0-60 in 10.7s, very close to regular Prius.

I have yet to see negative opinion on Prius c... Together with pricing, it is amazing powertrain. As I keep mentioning, Toyota keeps talking with real cars that sell in real world, unlike GM and Ford that have yet to sell their cars in real numbers, and it is 2012 already.

Yes, I would have liked DI, Valvematic, 2cly turbo, lion powered small car... and it would have made for great PR show. But it would not sell in real life, just like competition's PR cars dont sell in real life.

 

We were comparing a prius c with its current hsd and engine versus one with a gen III engine. I would expect with the gen 3 engine and new hsd even higher city mpg and over 1 second faster to 60. yaris is 9, gen III is 9.8 according to toyota. A 1.8L engine is not much heavier than a 1.5.

Yes I know you hate ford and gm. I'm not sure what that has to do with some of us thinking toyota could have done better with this car. If you actually read my comments instead of your spin, I think the car will sell well.

I just think they should have used their better existing engine. It may have added a little to price, but not all that much, but made it faster and more efficient.

Here is part of the automotive press interview on the genIII
Surprising Critics, New Prius Improves Both Power, Efficiency | News & Analysis content from WardsAuto

They did add cooled egr to the gen II engine, but not the lower friction. If you read the information, valvematic by itself would not help this engine. IIRC the gen II had expansion of 13:1 and compression of 9.5:1 to 6.5:1, not high areas of gain for valvematic. DI requires much work for toyota on this engine, but I know they are working on it.

With the additional work at the low power end of these engines downsizing from 1.8 to 1.5 doesn't really help efficiency, only cost, size, and weight.

 

Doesn't really matter anyway. All along, real-world 50 MPG combined has been the target for hybrid mainstream acceptance. That's why I didn't pay close attention to how the estimated values were calculated. With all the highway-only advertising, what was the point? MPG is misleading in itself too. gallons/100miles is far more informative.

Price on the other hand, that's a very big deal and has been for many years. Seeing this reduction is a welcome next step. That will stir new interest.
.

 

Look, I don't think it really matters, but yes when you are like john and doing funny math do show its better, I just felt like I had to comment. I'm sure toyota when they made the statement they thought over all mileage would be better. The most efficient without a plug was widely reported during the prius family pr tour, and included in my previous link. Then in december articles switched to "city", but they didn't retract best overall which was in the context of the original marketing material. Car companies make promises before the cars are done. Some on this site seem to think trade show talk should forever be punished for other makes but not toyota. That is why I am commenting. The car should be evaluated on its own merit, not on the goals toyota had and released and whispered to the press.

On the merits of the car I'm sure it will sell well. That doesn't mean that it is wrong for some people to feel disappointed. You need a plug to use less gas than the prius c in the city, and you need a plug to use less gas than the prius liftback on the highway. My city mileage is much bellow epa, because the air conditioning, short trips and stops, are not accounted for in the tests. A phev or bev helps most in city driving. I own the gen III prius, but my next car will likely be a plug in.

 

i dont hate GM or Ford... I just think they generate a lot of PR and sell very little of actual (hybrid) vehicles. wish all of them sold more hybrids. I think you will agree with me that Ford selling only 30k hybrids last year is really really disappointing. GM is just pathetic, no other word for it.

I dont see why would 1.8l be more efficient than 1.5l in the city, that makes no sense at all, and goes against every euro cycle test that we know of, and we have info on for instance 1.0l vs 1.33 Yaris or 1.33 vs 1.6l Corolla, etc. Smaller engine means smaller consumption in the city. This also reflects my real life observations - yes, Yaris 1.0l will be signficantly more economical than 1.33 Yaris or 1.8l Yaris.

What would have helped in City more would have been bigger batteries and motors, like in G3, but obviously thats cost decision.

Main idea behind Prius c is to get reasonably priced high mpg vehicle that will sell, not generate PR.

I find your complaints about speed interesting. In Europe Prius c is considered peppy, and probably faster than most cars in its range. In any case, it seems like pretty funny thing to mention for eco car...

 

What gets better mileage in the city a gen III prius or a 1.0L yaris? I do not know what kind of slowing tricks they do in Europe, but in the US it would be the heavier prius with the much larger engine. This is counter intuitive. You actual need to look at loading and bsfc charts to figure out which is better on the prius c, you can't use your gut. We only have 1.5L yaris here, and its a crap car, so I don't know much about it, and don't really care. The reason the 1.8L atkinsonized engine is more more efficient at low power levels as well as high ones than the atkinsonized 1.5L. Toyota has simply done a better job with this engine. What does your gut tell you is more economical in the city the gen II - lighter with lower rolling resistance and same drag smaller engine - or gen III heavier with more rolling resistance and bigger engine.

The european market is different than the american one, but yes my prius is slow to me, and the prius c will be slow in its class. This doesn't mean it won't sell well, it will help draw those that wan fuel economy.

 

in the city? always smaller engine. It has nothing to do with my gut but with the facts, measurements and real life experiences.

Yaris 1.0l vs 1.33l
Combined driving (litres/100 km)
4,8
5,4

Urban driving (litres/100 km)
5,7
6,8

Extra urban driving (litres/100 km)
4,2
4,5

CO2 combined driving (g/km)
110
123


Only where big engine is more efficient is trully high speed highway driving, which isnt really calculated by Euro cycle.

My own real life experiences, as well as millions other european drivers do confirm that 1.0l engine will spend less gas than 1.8l engine in the same car, in the city. City driving of course does not require 80 mph.