Planing CanView and BMS+ conversion with lithium

Mr. Plug> Nice stats! Do you have/consider block heater and or at least oil pan pad heater (several threads here on forum), can you presumably park near a socket? It would be interesting to see some real world usage statistics with preheated engine + PHEV kit.. till the winter lasts in the northern hemisphere..

people posted success using both at once (block + tranny oil pan heater):
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-.../38082-magnetic-engine-heater.html#post496337

howto install steps:
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...ine-block-heater-yourself-guide-may-help.html
EU Defa Warmup vs. US kits: http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...r-yourself-guide-may-help-19.html#post1394292

Optional:
Kussmaul auto eject plugs ("break away connector/cord eject system") for both US/EU voltages:
http://www.editionduo.com/publication/index.php?i=91247&m=&l=&p=36&pre=&ver=flex
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...ock-heater-break-away-magnetic-connector.html

 

144 volts

 

You posted nominal 144VDC, which is not exactly PHEV's pack around 166-168VDC
Btw. video showing relocation of the OEM NiMH pack for Prius c/Aqua/Yaris Hybrid (t0:50)>>

AutoGuide: The best short intro vid on Prius c/Aqua so far (53mpg rated, <1.1t) >>

Reuters: The first real Aqua/Prius c dealer lot video of the internets?
Notice the wrong comm. on price and not explained japanese FE/cycle claims>>

The first real Aqua/Prius c onboard vid preview in the outdoors of the internets?
Notice the "upscale" interior finish and volume vs tiny Yaris Hybrid which doesn't have that Prius family space deck dash (?but very likely the exact same drivetrain in different carbox)>>

Yaris Hybrid as of now not US bound product, this is because overtaxed and imported hybrids are pricewise uncompetetive in the EU, so basically Yaris Hybrid ~= JAP/US pricing of Aqua/Prius c; and according to that AutoGuide preview the Prius c will be even cheaper on the US market than the lower model Yaris Hybrid in EU, Ggrrrrrrrrrrrrr! >>
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqLU-MD33OU&feature=related"]2013 Toyota Yaris Hybrid - YouTube[/ame]

 

a ok yes but just use nom and what ever someone wants to get out of that info it can be calcuted
so prius is not 240 but 201,6
i was confused about al the numbers you used

edit:
you add a lot of video about the prius c/yaris.. maybe if i may ask you post them in the prius c topic?

 

Any development on that front? If I recall the related talk years ago (52mph hack promised), Can-view Gen3 support wasn't planned/annouced publicly as such. It probably depends on volume of interest asking for it, and people with these cars in his very area of residence to get hands on it. And if new hardware is needed, he will have to wait and then order a batch of new boards etc. Also, lot of people just wait for the warranty to expire or log more miles before start tinkering hard with their cars. Latest update on his pages is something like Q4 2011 with regards to BMS2, so hopefully the project has not died out completely. I think it would be quite unfortunate/foolish, when right now the explosion of new hybrid models is going to hit the showrooms..

Since that's about surfing on CANbus "transpartent" car industry protocol I don't think Toyota could have blocked it by some authorization access code or putting some stupid anti spoofing-hacking layers over the Gen2 HSD system, just don't know. But that would be a major bummer, if that's the case, the quiet of death on this topic is rather strange, when there are so many new Prius Gen3/V/Auris HSD/.. drivers around..

Perhaps we are just imaging things, Toyota had completely different tasks and priorities lately with the tragic events and related disruptions last year, so just from the standpoint of running dealer service for the 3x HSD platforms: Gen2 Prius; Gen3 Prius/V/Auris HSD; and Prius c/Aqua/Yaris HSD (discounting the rest of hybrids like big sedans, SUVs etc) it would be quite crazy doing some major software overhauls because of diy PHEVs.

 

well i am still looking at charger options
the charger/balancer i posted a link on before is 5 amps max over 6 cels so olny 800ma en thats way to low.
so back on the seach

 

Thank you mr plugin.

Reading the celllog log.
1) Cell voltage goes down to "only" 2.95 v. Do you think it is because the battery temperature was like outside, only 37°F ? brrr.
2) Your cells don't have the same internal resistance, but look very well balanced, even at the end of your trip.


With a so cold temperature, 32 miles, 122mpg no long and steep hill I would use full grill blocking. And control ice temp first and second igbt temp. I use full grill blocking. Today open just a little after 110 km (69 miles), outside average temp. was 5°C (41°F)

For your next EV test, could you tell us the cell temp ? :thumb:

:wave:

 

Dutchman> speaking of chargers as mentioned before there is the diyev forum open source charger project, it's quite powerfull upto 10kW (1.5kW for standard US power outlet), wide range of voltages, fully programmable w. lcd, kit goes for less than 1grand. Project seems to be on trajectory for adapting rapidly most + more original functions than Brusa, it should be stackable (25kW as of now). Rickard is involved in evaluation/beta testing and posted a video pre-review (t55min) sometime in November 2011 or so.., but this is still very young product..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/user/marionrickard?feature=mhum#p/u/6/QNCODRBZZAI"]marionrickard's Channel - YouTube[/ame]
http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger.pl

Quality chargers also fully programmable are the Piktronik brand, but you would have to divide the pack around their ~48V (max 18A) units, charge with mutliple chargers in subpacks:
KOP1001

Or their very new 3kW programmable model w. display, stackable (<18kW), not sure but this might not be that much cheaper than entry level Brusa, but ask them anyway for pricing, other details:
KOP3000

And there is obviously the Brusa, you can see it on almost every pic from big OEM BEV/PHEV prototyping, it's expensive for the power output, but also fully programmable and water cooled, obviously stackable:
EV Battery Chargers | Metric Mind Corporation

In terms of hooking it up with cell BMS you might have to improvise and choose the apropriate model/brand for a given charger, some brands have already selected partners or recommend specific solution..

Not pushing anything specific, but it's not a good idea to plunk down as less as possible especially on CHARGER of expensive/laborous custom batt. pack, the above mentioned options should be certainly in every top5 charger list as of 2012. The two other perhaps being Zivan & Elcon already named on previous pages. Manzanita is more of a racing bull charger and not that much of use outside US.

 

yes EVTV .. not really a series more a long play evening filling shows haha slow but good show
thx for adding the time where the info is at

did not now the brand KOP1001 etc chargers so have a look there. thx for the info.
i do not want a fast charger
for 1 its bad vfor the cells and 2 i have the time to charge overnight. 10 hours so a nice slow charg wil be fine.. but still need like 2amps then.

if they would only make those charger balancers for RC with more then 800mah per cell.. then i would be happy ;-) those things are cheap and have balancing and charging in one.

 

The general problem with BEV/PHEV charging here is that you either demand "automotive grade" hardware, i.e. plan to haul the charger inside the car and expect some durability and lifetime in 5-10yrs or bit more (vibrations, heat, moisture, frost). Or just go with various RC like gizmos with questionable durability and HIGH DEGREE user maintanance (for such car application), not mentioning cascading safety risk in complex system of dozens of big Ah cells to charge.

On the other hand, charging at home gives much more leveled playfield in terms of securing the environment even with a bit unreliable equipment, however the major con is that your mpg goes south, because the charger is needed regularly during the day on the road for opportunity topups at least in the PHEV scenario..

So, I would argue, even if it's pricey/bulky/ugly as hell something like "quality" 1-2kW outputing onboard charger is definately a must.

 

so got the price for a zivan Life charger.. 1000 euro's and 560 for a nimh sx curve back in 2008

Mesuge
i am not planning on charging during the day..
leave from home with a full charge and come back home with maybe a empty battery and do a night time charge again
also wil add several small temp sensors with relay to shutoff mains power during charging of things heat-up
i can have a max 10 hours charge time so i dont need a big 1 of 2 kw charger.

edit:
also looking at lifepo4 charge curves
http://www.google.nl/search?q=Lifep...4HJCj-gbC1Zz0Ag&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=839

edit

here is some nice info
http://www.efirstpower.com/li.html

and about charging curve
http://www.batterypoweronline.com/eprints/TI_0510.html

It uses constant current (CC) and constant voltage (CV) and consists of three charging phases: pre-charge; fast-charge CC; and CV. In the pre-charge phase, the battery is charged at a low rate for testing, if the battery is internally shorted when the cell voltage is below 0.5 V.
Fast-charge current is applied to charge the battery quickly. Its charging rate can be up to 10C rate, which is much higher than the traditional LI-Ion battery without additional degradation. The charger enters to the CV mode when the battery reaches a voltage regulation limit (typical of 3.6 V/cell). During the CV mode, the charge current exponentially drops to a pre-defined termination level where the battery is fully charged and the charging is terminated. Since the LiFePO4 battery has much lower internal resistance, its charging time is much shorter than the Li-Ion battery.
While the LiFePO4 is much safer than the Li-Ion battery, a fast charge safety timer is usually required to prevent charging a dead battery for an excessively long period. The LiFePO4 battery can be overcharged to 4 V without safety issues, even though it is specified to charge to 3.6 V. However, the energy stored in the battery between 3.6 V and 4 V is very limited. From the discharge curve in Figure 1, the voltage drop is very fast at the beginning of the discharge period. This demonstrates that the battery does not store much energy at higher voltages.
Most of the battery energy is stored near the battery voltage between 3.0 V and 3.4 V for 1C-5C discharge rates. It does not give much benefit to charge the battery higher than 3.6 V though it does not degrade the battery. The voltage difference between rechargeable voltage threshold and battery charge voltage should be around 200 mV, since it takes a few seconds to drop the battery voltage from 3.6 V to 3.5 V. Although the LiFePO4 battery has excellent and stable high temperatures, it is still preferable to monitor its temperature to improve safety.

a charging ic
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/01276a.pdf

a adress in china with bms en chargers
http://www.bmsbattery.com/capacity/136-lifepo4-capacity-balancing-bms-for-16-cells-in-series.html
​

 

Hi Plug-in,

I was just reading in the DIY electric car forum about how you can use a toggle switch or a relay in the most negative wire(0v wire) of the CellLog8S to switch it off. This would be handy to switch them off when not using them rather than having to unplug them.

 

is that because of the USB ? i read when you plug the USB in while connected to the cells it wil damage the usb.
also then its not using anything when instandby.

 

I believe this to be the case over many connects/disconnects of USB cable whilst cells are connected. Good point, I did not think of this one. Another good reason to use a switch to turn off each celloLog8s.

 

Hah, good for them, that "prototype" open source charger even after those new stupid customs and VAT EU bound import changes of Q1 2011, will be still more affordable and likely a better charging unit.

Definately wait for other brands price quotes, Zivan is a bit dated design for lithiums with not that much safeties & setting comforts for the user of that previously discussed and "recommended" lot of chargers on the market now (burned a few packs/cars from 1990s till today).

You mentioned that even 1-2kW is too much power? Again it's nominal rating, you can throtle down the current output in most of the programmable ones..

I'd suggest even for predominantely home charging mode, make it less than 8, upto 6hours charging time it's the best. Apart from obvious "drive anytime" convenience reasons, did you consider the off peak electricity pricing at all? - I doubt you can get yours 10hrs suggested uninterrupted overnight charging (tarif) anywhere in the EU land for good price. You can bet your socks off, that even if the econ/debt crises deteoriates some more, electricity rates will go only up as this is not our grandpa's recession, this is going to be much worse.. oops sorry for the rant..

Frankly, if you for some strange reason demand less power, then I don't see any other option than wiring it with disconnects into smaller subpacks and use several say ~48V (100-500W) quality/programmable chargers. This has its own set of cons, namely you have to depend on and watch x-more electric appliances in such setup, and it will take more precious place (onboard?), perhaps even more money.

 

2100 to 0700 next day thats 10 hours. offpeak lower price elec.
80% is ~16ah IF i fully use that DOD.
16ah in 10 hours ~3800 watts and ( 10% losses ) 4200 watt over 10 hours =420 watt charger
and i dont think i will be doing DOD of 80% a lot.

thinking about getting 18 of these http://www.ev-power.eu/docs/GWL-Power-POW12V2ASpec.pdf
and then use 9 of the cell logs to keep if from overcharging.
i have 1 charger for 4 cells and 1 celllog for 8 cells
1 cell log will shutdown no more then 8 charing cells the other cells will keep on charging.

at 2 amps.. o wait.. 2 amps for 4 cells wil be only 500amps per cell... mmm damm way to low.
still posted it because... am i wrong?

 

Why not just buy one Elcon PFC1500? US$340 from http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=17 like I did. Save the hassle. They state it has 93% plus efficiency. The GWL charger only states it has greater than 80% efficiency. There are a lot of power losses in using many GWL 12v chargers.

 

ok not including shipping to the EU its 435 dollars for me ( including estimated customs tax 16% and sales tax 19% )
i wil send them a email to aks if they have a dealer in the EU?

o wait its a china company? so you got your charger from that company in china?
how long did you wait for it and did you have a look at the build quality?

does it do the lifepo4 charge curve? cc and cv and at the and only cv?

it also got canbus support?

1500W HF/PFC Battery Charger

Advantages
1. Internal integrated PFC, no pollution to electric network, avoid shocking on electric network from heavy current.
2. Wide input voltage range AC85V~AC265V available for worldwide requirements, convenient for electric-network fluctuation and vehicles exportation.
3. High with 93% above efficiency while only about 80% efficiency the traditional chargers can meet.
4. Intelligent temperature compensation function in the charging process, preventing the damage to battery caused by charge-off or charge due, greatly extending the lifespan of the battery.
5. Fully-sealed and water-proof, protection class IP46. Shock resistance treatment made inside makes vibration-proof level up to SAEJ1378 that can fully meet the standard of automobile appliance usage.
6. Available for various kinds batteries like lead-acid, LiFePO4 battery etc., Flexible and programmable of the charging mode and preset in 10 unique algorithms. Equipped with CAN communication interface to realize real-time communication with BMS.

 

Hm, as mentioned before when importing you don't end up with that much cheaper solution as in comparison to that open source stuff, which as kit can be even distributed (ask them) into smaller postage subpacks (some items could be sourced locally), effectively no or lower duties to be paid. Even if you find a dealer for the chinese stuff it won't be cheaper than direct US import and duties. In my book this is a lot of money for non programmable (factory only) chinese unit.
Let's see some EU outlets for chinese stuff
(pricing overview only - I don't endorse particular vendors):
http://www.ev-power.eu/?p=p_58&sName=chargers-(48v-and-more)
http://www.ev-power.eu/?p=p_63&sName=chargers-(6-kw-pfc)
(blog - seems they are ordering several dozen tons of ytrium cells each year)

Btw. did you get some response from Piktronik so far?, I vaguely recall pricing from years ago, have no idea about the latest stuff on offer though. But this is quality/premium segment mostly, their market is based on luxurious electric pleasure boats of the plush Alpine area (Austria, CH, Northern Italy, Bavaria, Slovenia..)