Planing CanView and BMS+ conversion with lithium

Yep, the two Enginer DC converters are charging the lithium pack constantly unless voltage is too high. But because lithium battery is so stable/constant it charges easily like a sponge compared to NiMH. The NIMH battery voltage rises quickly and warms up so does not take much charge from Enginer kits. There is also some regenerative braking that you would normally get.

 

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i have found this abour the A123

:
I have messed with a few of these tabless cells and found one very important thing to be careful about. The foil pouch material on these cells is connected to the negative anode side of the battery. It is separated from the positive terminal by a thin layer of teflon and is also coated with a plastic layer on the outside. On the regular tab cells the teflon insulator sticks out from under the foil about 1mm up the terminal to keep them well separated and there is plenty of tab to work with without getting your termination too close to the foil pouch material. On the short tabs, when you grind down the foil material and its underlying teflon insulator on the positive termainal, you don't have so much room to work with and it makes for a potential short circuit if any solder or screwed-on terminal lugs should come in contact with the pouch foil. Therefore, it is very important that any kind of solder or clamp used on the positive terminal have at least 1mm of clearance from touching the foil pouch material. Any overlap and it could touch the now-exposed edge of the foil or wear through the outer coating and short out the battery.:

Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Spec sheet for A123 AMP20M1HD-A

thx i now about the fan mod
but is thats a good thing.. keeping it cooler but still putting in more amps then it can handle? maybe then you get electrolite getting out over time?

ok
so your graphs is not a reprecentaion for the A123 drive alone

 

Yes, if you use A123 without tabs this is extremely important.
We talked about this in this post

When connecting two cells, the two aluminium part of their envelopes must not touch each other. So you have to insert a metal plate between tabs at least 1-2mm.
And all metal plates must never touch the aluminium envelope.

If you use a metal box it is better insert some isolation between cell pouch and box.

 

Yep, modifying 140 cell tabs is a PITA. I did it. In retrospect I would have preferred to pay for the full cells with complete tabs and saved myself a lot of work.

You can see my work here http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-p...planing-canview-bms-conversion-lithium-7.html

 

lopezjm2001> sorry for restating the obvious, so in terms of batt. pack your addon diy PHEV system consists of 1. OEM NiMH 2. Enginer 8kWh (or any custom LiFePO pack) 3. 70x20Ah A123 pouches right? That's some severe case of hybridization going on there lol.

Seriously, what would be your take on the idea relocating all the extra bulky batt packs, and possibly chargers into the place of front right passanger seat (removed). In that fashion you get the most bang of your Prius cargo compartment back, which is one of the primary advantages beating sedan/shallow liftback Hondas attempt with mild hybrids and though/impossible diy PHEV options, which by the way resulted in their big sales fiasco and fast used car value depreciaton for their owners. Obviously, those two smelly DC-DC converters remain tucked down underfloor trunk there and duckted for the vent. There seems only one aspect to solve, namely how to properly duct these "HV" DC lines back, either in the interior, or by running hard plastic tubing duct underneath the car, so that means only one additional hole for the former front passanger seat area since there are small vent holes in the tire well in the back.

This approach brings better weight distribution, and ensures still having 2-3 seats in the back, so the PHEV remains upto 4peoples car with huge liftback cargo space. We can put it also in terms of scaling priorities (well the significant other or every other individual might object and push different scale):

1. maximizing PHEV potential > 2. preserve cargo space of Prius > 3. comfort of add.passangers
/from highest utility 1 -> 3 lowest

Perhaps future PHEV addon modders for the Prius V will give at a go, since this seems as the only viable option preserving the cargo space and doing long range (or extra high mpg) PHEV mod.

I've seen something similar in the BEV world years ago, and it has not been done to my knowledge since, but it might be a viable concept to at least contemplate its pros/cons. It's perhaps just that false mental fixation thingy with these passanger front seats, they are empty all the time afterall..

 

Hi Mesuge,

I do not have a add-on OEM NiMH pack, just the original factory fitted OEM NiMH. I do not need the cargo space. I still have my two/three back seats. My PHEV kits all go into the rear cargo bay. See here http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-p...laning-canview-bms-conversion-lithium-20.html

However I would like to see photos of how battery packs and chargers replace front passenger seat. The only advantage I can see is better weight distribution. My front passenger seat is often occupied and my back seats are always unoccupied except when I take my dog to the beach.

 

This HV Fan mod can also be done on a prius version III?

 

Yep, thanks. Perhaps my bad wording, I know you have only the OEM NiMH pack, I just had to write it down, how the batt. juice flows in your system, since this thread is a bit confusing as concurently documents several different builds, and various PHEV strategies. I think your approach is as close to the original Toyota OEM PiP as possible in diy/budget limited conditions, they are using three subpacks (lithium) as well, but only one for regen, at least as I understand it. So, it seems the strategy is similar to have a base load pack and "athelete" pack to work in tandem.

Well, at the moment the seat reshufle is just a suggestion, I noticed that both BEV a PHEV conversions suffer from some strange ilness, which doesn't allow for getting the full potential, e.g. too heavy rear axle, full trunk of junk or two seaters only, batteries and electronics distributed all over the place and often exposed to elements etc. Where by ditching the front seat seems as "THE" solution => get your desired BEV/PHEV performance + good service area + cargo + carry at least 3adults, incl. driver. In terms of mounting, the relocated pack can be tight down easily by swaping used/scrapyard rails from compatible car seat, after removing its back rest it can serve as platform (positionable) for the batt pack/chargers/bms etc..

As you indicated in your particular situation you don't value the liftback cargo space as much as others (I do), however I gather it's the second best or actually sharing the very first place of the overall positive value of the Prius HSD platform. Otherwise we could stick to cheapo and buggy IMA hybrid sedans/limited hatch by Honda, plus custom Enginer DC-DC kit and getting easy 60-80mpg, well with some trouble codes poping up every other minute and their smallish OEM NiMH pack going dodo in short order..

PS noticed in your video, the following stats, my writedown from shakycam could be a bit off but in any case driving 84kph for roughly 8kW (before losses upstream) is quite good. So, in this situation it all makes sense with 90-130-160A* prismatic cells for the DC-DC feeding batt. subsystem. And a123 20Ah pouches (or ?similar) for the buffer pack. *largest one giving at these speeds nice 100km range under conservatively favorable %DoD. Hence your ideal condition (flat terrain, avg. speed) 90km range claim I guess under bit harsher depletion mode.

2/ t2:50 Canview 233V regen 16A (total) and a123 subpack regen (11.5A)
1/ t1:44 Canview 233V nogas 35A (total) and a123 subpack nogas (not on camera)

 

i think this is a problem for cells without the tabs..... and looking at the remark that "after nowing it would take a lot of work i would go for the cells with tabs" i think i wil go for the cell with tabs
just dont understand wy these need to bee ~400 dollars more ( like 25% ) just for those tabs....

 

OK!!! JUST GOT THE CELLS

now wait when they arive!!!

cake for everyone

edit:

i go for the 74 ( 2 extra just in case ) cells and with tabs... PRICEYY but ok.. 1 year more of driving
now to work on the BMS/cell-log stuff and casing..
i geuss the cellw ith tabs are 4 cm longer.

 

Place were you got them?

 

ebay where planitaire and ( forget the name ) here also got them
link is in the topic,, if you can not find just ask and i send you a messsage with link

.. btw your still ROLLING? ;-) same packs as in 2006-2008?

edit: its almost festival time in china so keep vingers crossed it wil not take to long.

 

Hi Flying White Dutchman, yes, I'm still driving my 2004 with the Dec 2006 PHEV conversion.
I had renewed 3 out of the 4 add-on packs I have. Still the original NiMH oem pack of the Prius after 120,000 miles and my flagship CANVIEW4 and BMS+ from Hybrid Interfaces.
The extra batteries are aged already, can't do more than 14 miles but better than none.
I'm awaiting the arrival of my newest PiP that, of couse will be hacked with extra LiON batt . for an extended range.
I'm researching a viable solution to my future need.
PM me the referal link and price they charged U.
Thank you

 

so your added OEM packs died? but thats in paralel to you oem prius battery? so wy is that stil running?

 

I'm isolation the OEM with the add-on (4 packs) by means of a hefty relay while recharging. Safe keeping .........

 

Dutchman> good for you, the source of these leaked a123 won't last for ever..
The reason for being different versions, probably the stock and outsourced manufs in Asia for a123 is more than one (China, Korea..) Rumor has it they sell it NOW because they kept producing these while large volume deal (multi year) went dodo, most probably Fisker isn't going to sell so much cars/cells and a123 was as always very anal with (anybody) their subcontractors, so they finally dumped the cells on the ebays of Asia despite what legal threats a123 tried to pull on them.. Simply, the fact these leaks exist in such volume means that a123 probably hangs on the edge of bankruptcy (as Enerdel recently), and obviously the asians just don't respect them anymore.

As they arrive pls. post some details, like "grading" labeling series consistency, quality of the lot, uniformity of the cells pouches and performance, etc.

 

hi mister undercover do you also need serials if cells?

i hope they do not go bankrupped because then i can never replace them....with cells when failing.

i did hear abvout he fisker story and yes OR these are just 18ah instead of 19,5 ah minimum. and sold as second best grade..to the china market. what happens to them after that is not there problem

and even if they do go bankrupped i gues because these cells are that good i hope someone wil pick it up and still keep producing them.

now its waiting time............ time for a case and bms sort off.


regarding the BMS
maybe i get 12 of these
http://dx.com/imax-b6-2-5-lcd-rc-lipo-battery-balance-charger-100-240v-us-plug-35190#overview
its a 6 cell charger and balancer in one.. dont need to buy a big expensif charger and do not need any balancing.
just buy some cheap litium low voltage beepers and i got it working for under 400 dollars

 

It's kind of strange that various people (incl. me) on the internets usually lambast Toyota for not backing up a serious attempt in producing full BEVs, mind you the upcomming RAV4 EV will be limited volume/region avail. in the first years.

However, if you think it through and through you get to undestand their take on it, they are already producing almost a dozen of "electrics": Prius /-V/-C, Auris, Yaris, .. and those other hybrid luxury SUVs etc.

Take for instance the latest baby Yaris hybrid, manuf. in France, so more affordable in comparison to Prius overseas imports. It's reportedly ~16.5-20% downsized HSD in weight and performance to model Auris/Prius genII. So, given the discussion above one can guesstimate that it will take roughly around 6.5kWh (super ideal conditions) to flat cruise around 80kph, which should be fine for ~ <1.5C discharge with the a123 20Ah pouches (and similar) at the ~233VDC. Now, it's doubtfull they will invest into new format NiMH modules just for this baby, so they are probably rather going to decrease the voltage of this smallest HSD system and hence make the series connected OEM NiMH pack shorter(not that wide) in that tiny vehicle platform. That's actually confirmed as plausible scenario, given the leaks of low resolution japanese brochures with vehicle diagrams picturing smallish pack.

So, lets scale it down again accordingly to say 196VDC, which give us still <2C and 60cells in the PHEV pack. That gives us around usable <3kWh for 32km in 75%DoD at that super ideal 80kph scenario, lets derate for odd 15-20km range with some more realistic accel/decel city drive cycle pumping.. Hm, quite good in my book, anytime switch button back to OEM mode and you can ICE all the way if necessary.

Seems like there is no need for BEVs when you "can?" tinker with the good old HSD..

Cons?: Now as we addressed previously above the cargo/front pass. seat dilema, and quite likely Norman's CANboards won't likely work right away with it or ever..

edit:

"The battery pack is 140mm shorter and 11.0kg lighter than 3G."
According to that table the difference in packs power is even higher than my estimate it's whooping 24% less for the forthcomming downsized HSD drivetrains. However, the MG2 seems to be downsized only by 10%, so it tends to suggest the system won't be crippled for diy PHEVs. And hence pack voltage appears aprox. slightly bellow 170VDC.

The available Prius C/Aqua (~Yaris Hybrid?) info suggest that downsizing of HSD was rather substantial design effort, hence the high likelyhood of quite different communication on the BMS level in these cars, I definately doubt they just tweaked performance parameters on the old GenII protocol, it's gonna be GenII&III mix plus downsizing induced changes..
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-c-main-forum/92689-prius-c-concept-18.html#post1427910