Volt Sales Figures

I'm sure they would prefer to sell them quicker, but with all of the accolades the Volt received and the increased showroom traffic leading to some of the best chevy quarterly sales in years, I'll bet their pretty content with it overall.

I still think the biggest problem now is marketing, the early adopters rushed in and the fast followers are trickling in, but to get sustainable sales they are going to need to teach a lot of mainstreamers what the car is and why its so great. Its difficult for shoppers to factor in lower operating costs when looking at a sticker, but when my neighbors realize I'm saving hundreds of dollars a month on gas it starts to make more sense to them.

I don't think at 2,000 units a month the car can be considered a failure (about a billion a year in gross sales), and thats the level I expect sales to stabilize at for a while (probably most of 2012).

The Volts that qualify for the CA state rebate start rolling off the line next month, that will help sales as well.

 

Huh ?

The "fire" had nothing to do with the Li-ion cells.

 

Cars.com now has dealer listings for the base Volt for 27-28K. I presume these are cars the dealer has already collected the applicable tax credits. So ~6k car sales after introduction, dealers are dumping these cars at a huge loss.

If that does not define market failure, nothing does.

 

Only 4 are listed below $30K and they have $11.5K in both federal and state incentives subtracted from the base price. Six of the nine priced below $32K are from the same NJ dealer.

If huge mark downs define market failure, then even the Prius is one as my local dealer will advertise a low ball sale price every now and then. I see HUGE deals ($5-7,000 off) on trucks all the time in my local paper yet they remain the number one seller here and nationwide.

I agree it's priced too high to big a big seller.

 

If the tax credits been taken the car has been titled and is now a used car. Cars.com has used prii listed for considerably less than new ones, are prii failures?

 

My source is 2011 Chevrolet Volt: Development Story.

"In more extreme vehicle duty cycles, such as driving in Mountain mode, the SOC will raise the lower limit to ensure there is adequate power when needed."​

I read that as the battery could not provide adequate power below the MM 45%. Your explanation makes sense but I like to do more reading from your source.

Let's go back to EREV. EVs do not change the minimum SOC because it is climbing a mountain so neither should Volt (if it is EREV). This really points to under-powered range extender and the consequence of the overall weight.

In order for it to be a true EREV, Volt's gas engine need more power or the minimum SOC should be permanently set to 45%.

Sure it does. EVs don't turn on gas engine when the cabin needs heat. EV's battery is sized to provide adequate propulsion power while providing the cabin heat.

Volt turns on the gas engine for cabin heat (when very cold). This would mean two things. 1) Battery cannot provide cabin heat and provide adequate propulsion power (need to increase battery size). 2) The battery chemistry need improvement to be more reliable very cold temp.

Turning on the gas engine when the battery is not depleted violates EREV definition.

They are in the same class (Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles). The two labels are for Series and Parallel (Blended) types. See page 7 and 8 for the labels.

There is no such thing as EREV.

Your signature said 168.8 MPG. Which is more accurate?

As I understand, all those miles (includes miles driven under electricity) are divided by just the gasoline gallons. It is very misleading because you are measuring the consumption of your "EV" with gallons of gasoline. How many kWh of electricity did you use? What is the combined composite MPGe?

You provided 3.26 cents/mile. What is your electricity rate? Does it include the cost of the solar panels? How about the delivery charge, taxes and infrastructure fee? Those need to be split or included as the same is true when you purchase premium gasoline.

 

Huh ? Twice...

Where did I wrote "fire" or anything about?

I might as well go back to my english lectures, I must have failed and can't remember.

 

According to Edmunds (GM spec PDF doesn't show curb weight for Equinox),

2011 Equinox LS: 3,777 lbs
2011 Volt: 3,781 lbs

Volt is a compact car with 223hp (149hp battery and 74hp gas). The acceleration is pretty bad when compared to 134hp (36hp battery and 98hp gas) Prius.

That's the wastefulness nature of series hybrid that I was getting at.

These tailpipe and evaporative emissions are from CARB cert of 2010 PiP pre-prod model and 2011 Volt.

Carbon Monoxide:


Exhaust Emission:


Evaporative Emission:


As for GHG, there is a recent study done by DOE. I wouldn't rule it out as a flawed study. The graph below sums it up.



As you probably realized, Colorado electricity is mostly (71.3%) from Coal. That probably forced you to install solar panels. That extra cost should be included in your "cost per mile" calculation.

You mentioned you charge your Volt at night. This means the electrons that power your Volt is actually from coal. You sell your solar electrons during the day and buy dirty cheaper coal electrons at night while you make a profit. I hope that profit does not get included in your cost per mile calculation.

[Edit] NM, your post #317 has the answers.

 

GM rushed it and delivered incomplete product, in order to play 10 years catch up to the Prius. They are now facing the battery fire with the lack of multiple layers of protections. Plastic battery cover and the electronic exposed to liquid coolant? Come on!

As you probably know, SAE J1711 standard for measuring the exhaust emissions and fuel economy of plug-in hybrids was approved in July 2010. EPA was rushed to create a beta window sticker for the Volt in Nov 2010. The final stickers were finalized in May 2011.

Plugin conversion companies can do whatever they want. I don't think Toyota is going to mass produce a plugin without a proper way of measuring the emission and fuel economy.

Now that engineering standards and EPA rules are finalized, PiP is coming out well tested and tuned. You are an early adopter / show boater type so your priority is different than the majority of the mass market type.

Did you buy it or leasing it?

 

I've driven the volt 101mph in the mountains. For its "full performance" I don't need to read anything.

Please provide a reference for the source of your definition that says it cannot have difference SOC for different driving conditions.

You don't under stand the an EREV design, if you say that means its underpowered. The goal of a range extender is to provide as small an ICE as possible while meeting the power constrains. A 1.0L would have been ligher and maybe more fuel efficient (but noiser and more expensive since the 1.4L is already used in other GM products). A Blended hybrid tends to have a full sized ICE and undersized Electric motor, an efficient EREV has a full size Electric motor and a smaller ICE. (Only a super-car blended EREV like the karma, has full size both.)

I'd guess for 99.99% of miles, people don't need moutain mode. I routinley do trips with 2000' elevation gains at 75mph and don't use it. For the rare 5000' climbs at high way speeds, its an option.

Those are different subclassess of PHEV. An EREV is a subclass of PHEV, blended is a subclass. Parallel and serial are subclassess subclass on different dimensions. One could have a blended serial (I believe renault did a prototype one) or a blended parallel (PIP), or a EREV in either parallel or serial. The Volt is a EREV with both serial and parallel+serial operation. The fact that the Volt uses a PSD in either EV or Hybrid mode is part of how it achieves efficiencies over normal serial hybrids.
That EPA put it under serial is technical over-simplificaiton, but since they want to minimize the number labels its a reasonable government approximation.

We'll wait on the new standard definition to some out to formalize EREV, but its already in the EPA document I cited yesterday. Just because you don't like it does not mean its not a useful subclass.

Sorry, Fuelly only updates signatures when one fills the tank. Since I still have 4 gallons of gas on this tank its not yet included my fuelly total, which is also cumulative since Aug18 when I got the home (its in increasing as I had more long trips in Aug and Sept, and Oct).

But its not misleading to use MPG in an EREV, if the a primary goal is to reduce dependence on Oil. It is THE measure. But I also reported the cent/mile to put it in context. (I also use Mile per Fuel Dollar, but cents/mile seems more common on priuschat).


Since Oct 28, my last fillup, I've used approximately 360 kw-hr (from the wall) + 5.14 gallons to cover the 1268.89 miles, which I compute is just over 80 MPGe.

My power costs ares .049 kw-hr off peak and .09 mid peak, plus a "meter/infrastructure" fee + a renewable energy fee. Spreading the fees over the whole bill and accounting for the off-peak and mid-peak charging, my effective charging rate for the car works out to about .068 /kw-hr. With the car, we switched to TOU, which saved almost $15 a month for our other uses, wich really offsets most of the infrastructure fees.

I've installed solar yet.. buying 100% wind power from our power company. After researching I decided that was better as at night they have more excess wind and at times even idle the wind units.

 

Don't get me wrong. I expect the PiP to be a good car and probably the most energy/fuel efficient choice for millions of Americans. Just not me and millions of other americans. The market is large and many people need to switch to reduce our oil consumption. As I've posted in other threads and other forums, a family should do a evaluation for their usage patterns and make their choice based on analysis.

I bought the car (cash) and expect to keep it a long long time. I kept my previous car 17years so the Volt may literally be the last car I every buy.

 

You may want to try driving one. Mountain mode is to save power for long high power driving. Instead of spreading your negative ideas, go out and get a test drive. It may be enlightening.

weight doesn't really have much to do with being underpowered, it is the load. The volt can indeed go fully electric. It has trouble going fast uphill for a long time on the ice alone. This is volt specific, and I have not heard of a single driver who got into trouble because of it.

That's quite a silly definition, you want to turn on the ice early because in that 0.01% case the driver will be in the situation and forget to turn on mountain mode. I think I need to drive over 1000 miles to get anywhere mountain mode would come into play. Do you think a driver will be and be really pissed off they hit this unlikely case and have to go 60mph instead of 70 mph.

There aren't many EVs, and most of them have been sold in warm places. If you have an EV and its -40 the odds used to be your SOL. I like that PHEVs like the prius phv and and volt can still operate in these extreme conditions. How's this add a temperature limitation to EREVs like the volt and karma.

EREV is in CARBs definition for ZEV credit, and the idea is in the EPA labels. Neither has to do with serial or parellel, but does it run purely electric or blended.

Not quite sure what this has to do with sales. Is the equinox competing with volt and outselling it because its 4lbs lighter as standardly equiped?
The equinox is actually heavy for its crossover segment. The volt only has the fisker karma in its segment and looks really light comparatively

Your counting funny.
That prius has ice 98 + mg2 80 + 56 mg1 = 234
The volt has ice 74 + trac 150 + gen 71 = 295

The volt accelerates better than the prius, so how can it be bad comparatively? Both accelerate poorly compared to cars of the same size and hp, but they are trying to be efficient. It would be nice if the volt had a sport mode like the fisker karma and porsche 918 when you could add the ice to the motors to get max acceleration, but that is hardly a criticism versus the prius.

Certainly charging at wind at night and using solar during the day should not be counted against a volt owner. When you have a specific set of characteristics can't you just say dr. ino is saving gasoline and substituting renewable electricity, instead of repeating coal to fool people into thinking phevs can't be green?

 

Ah so it might seem its just a failure of the marketing department in NJ trying to mislead people, hoping the come in and decide its okay, or more likely come in and they try to sell them a Cruize instead.

Though to be honest, there is some value if the dealer took the title, and the creits then sells it at a lower price. The dealer is floating the load until tax refund so the buyer can get the credit the day they buy the car. For many buyers that's a chance in mindset. The price off the lot matters more to some than the price after a tax credit later in the year. Also for people whose income is not sufficient to justify the full tax credit, this allows the them to gain most of the benefit.

Its price too high to sell big, because the plan was only 10K this year, 45K next year. No need to try to price it to sell big when ramping up production. Its true that GM could underwrite the cost and loose money on each to buy market share (like many early product, including Prius in the early days), but that does not seem to be necessary.

 

How many years have we been waiting already? That document certainly didn't provide clarification. Let's try again: How is EREV identified?

Remember the differences between ASSIST & FULL hybrids? Still to this day, they both get dumped into the same category of "parallel", even though we all know that's not correct.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. Labels didn't distract from the outcome: consumption of gas. Now it will be consumption of gas & electricity.
.

 

A formal definition is (I hope) coming in the next release of the SAE J1715 standard for HEV Terminology.
I posted an initial definition from Tate, Harpster and Savagian from the General Motors Corporation. See http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/...docs/paper.pdf)
In their paper they say there is no SAE definition and propose an EREV be defined as “A vehicle that functions as a full-performance battery electric vehicle when energy is available
from an onboard Rechargeable Energy Storage System (RESS) and having an auxiliary energy supply that is only
engaged when the RESS energy is not available."

Yes, lumping into broad categories is often used to simplify testing and/or by marketing to confuse the public.

Hopefully you meant ultimately it doesn't matter if it leads to less consumption.

 

EV in EREV is self explanatory. EVs don't change minimum SOC due to the terrain or driver input.

The bottom line is, the Mountain mode blends gasoline power with battery power as you have said, the gas engine is not powerful enough. Blending is a good thing since it allows downsizing of the gas engine, electric motor or both. Volt does it and PiP does it even more. PiP is tuned for the best balance. Volt is tuned for driving experience.

Ok, they are not a completely different class as you first indicated. PiP is not a pure parallel. Volt is not a pure series. I also agree that EPA simplified it with the labels.

EREV is a mode of operation. It is not a class or subclass of vehicle. EREV is in the EPA document but only in the List of Acronyms and Abbreviation and nowhere else.

I like EREV, just don't think it is time yet because of the cost of electric propulsion and the battery. Blended strategy is suitable for now and it may shift toward EREV as the cost come down, if not leaped directly to BEV.

So you bought the Volt to make political statement. Volt is now a political football for a good measure.

We were discussing in the context of engineering so leave the political angle out of this. Let's talk about fuel consumption. Yes, electricity is a fuel. In fact, it is the default and primary fuel for the Volt so you should report that. Some may assume a motive for leaving it out.

How many kWh have you consumed? Are those 100% wind power?

 

Reducing our oil consumption does not require a plug. The most affordable and proven solution is a plain classic hybrid. Plugin cars requires another source of fuel to displace oil. We also need to make sure we are not wasting electricity for the sake of getting off oil.

Considering the amount of electric miles you put on, how long do you expect your Volt battery would last?

 

100% oil driven cars are not the best way to break the oil addiction, we have to use other fuels or energy sources, that is the point.

 

Not how it works, it does not mix grid energy and gas, except to have a bigger buffer. When you use Mountain mode, the car will subtract 10-14miles from the Estimated range (depending on your style and temps). And when you finish the trip, (or exit MM), the car will already have the same 10-14miles showing.

Different subclasses are different. They are both phevs, they are both subclasses of hybrids, subclasses of cars. One is a chevy, the other a toyota. Objects get many "different class"

 

I agree a classic hybrid is more affordable. An old beater is cheaper (just not as gas efficient) but that does not make it better. A bicycle is even cheaper than either, but does not work for most people commuting. And when I lived in Queens NY, I used only mass-transit, why are you talkin prius when you have the best mass transit system in the country!

Hybrids are good for those people that cannot afford a more efficient solution.
For those that can afford it and whose travel patterns allow it, a BEV is much better. For those that can afford and whose travel patterns don't fit a BEV, an EREV is better than a hybrid.

In my view, we can waste all the electricity we want as long as wind-power is generating so much power at night that they have to idle them (or their baseline counterparts). And if one has to choose between wasting gas and wasting electricity, I'll choose the later -- its a local resource and eventually can be renewable. Gas is largely imported and past its peak.

My milage is not likely the issue, I'll do 8-10K miles a year. My battery will likely die because of time. I expect it to last 15 or so years providing usable range. That is of course just my estimate based on lots of reading and the expected usage patterns. I'll agree it is the biggest risk but if I have to replace at 8 years, I'm okay with that. Someone has to invest in advancing the technology. Then again other people said the prius batteries would not last.

Might check out this tread
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread...ons-about-long-term-battery-performance/page2
that talks about internal GM estimates. And since the warranty in CA will be 10 years / 150000 mile warranty Its reasonable to expect the majority will last 12-15 years.