Volt Sales Figures

Sorry, I didn't get that point.

So you want to compare a PIP with a couple hundred extra pounds of weight and less interior room to a Volt or a Volt with a tiny battery pack and a bench seat to a PiP?

I'll agree in the second case there is no point in having an EREV with 3kwh of useable charge, blending would be a necessity.

If the PiP had a huge battery but the same smaller motors (designed to be blended), I still think the acceleration would be more to my liking in the EREV with a motor designed to handle the full range of my anticipated driving needs. I also think not using the blending in of oil at highway speeds would be preferable in the EREV (bigger battery in the hypo blended PHV would still be limited by smaller motors and burn at highway speeds (or sacrifice efficiency and become an EREV).

In this hypothetical I'll go ahead and run the ICE in the EREV as a generator unlinked to motive demand so my CS mileage is 50 mpg, same as the blended PHV. (because we're not comparing the Volt now, we're comparing the design philosophies. With equal CS mileage not burning any gas in CD is a huge plus.

 

I just showed a few exceptions to the EREV definition that Volt does not fit. Yet, you continued to change the rule along to fit your argument.

GM may have aimed to engineer the Volt as an EREV. The end result (production version) is incomplete. It is not an EREV, period. The minimum battery SOC should be 45% since 25% can't provide enough power for all situations. The battery chemistry is not reliable enough for very cold temp and it is also too small to heat the cabin. I think Volt could be a 25 miles EREV with slightly bigger battery but it'll cost even more and gas fuel economy will be worse.

EPA simply labels Volt as a Plug-in Hybrid. They don't care how gasoline and electricity are blended or mixed.

PHEV allows electric motors to downsize yet maintain the same system peak power. EREV is not capable of it, in order to reduce cost, weight and complexities.

We'll have to agree to disagree because you are from EV purist POV and I am from the practical balanced POV.

Blending is a better strategy. It uses all the available resources (gas engine) and the battery is wisely used.

A full acceleration using only the battery is foolish, especially when the on-board gas engine and gas tank remain inactive.

So it is not an EREV. Sorry, only one chart is allowed for the definition. There is no "but" about it. If you want to go that route, we can define PiP as an EREV in the City and PHEV on the highway.

Since the definition did not mention, the minimum SOC% cannot be changed. You can also use common sense. If it is available sometimes and not available other times (because it keeps changing), is it available?

Call it what you like (blending or mixing) but the end result is the same. The key issue with EREV is that CD->CS is allowed but not the other way around (CS->CD).

EREV looked good on a napkin but blended hybrids are good in the real-world. Since you followed the Volt from the beginning, you know how that project went from EREV to "PiP like" (minus instantaneous blending) plugin hybrid.

 

Should number the disadvantages as well.

• Weights more than a SUV (Equinox)
• Slow acceleration (gas engine horsepower wasted)
• More expensive
• Requires bigger battery
• Requires bigger electric motor (more than an EV, Leaf)
• Generates more Greenhouse Gas (using the average electricity mix)
• Consumes more electricity (more than an EV, Leaf)
• Longer to recharge
• Requires a faster charger (or end up being a garage queen)
• Increases complexity (liquid cooling, engine and fuel maintenance modes)
• Less interior volume (4 seater compact)
• Requires premium gasoline (gas goes stale even with premium)
• Substandard MPG in CS mode
• Substandard tailpipe emission (at least the current implementation)

 

They would never thought blending is desirable and why it was intended in the design.

For them, blending is bad because they only see the weaker electric motor. We see the entire synergy drive as a whole, optimized for various goals.

Just wait until the combined composite MPGe for PiP comes out.

 

Good posts usb, as always you have done a good job of concisely stating the argument and your position. I even agree for the most part with everything on your negative list and accept them with my positive list and am happy with the net effect.

On the above quotes, you know the EPA has different stickers for blended PHV and PHEV's, you've posted them before. Hopefully soon we'll be able to see the PiP's sticker and end much useless conjecture.

Also I disagree with your strict limitation of no CS -> CD. Both designs in CS are still hybrids, sometimes a hybrid will dip into the stored battery reserve when power demands and replace it later. If cycle life advancements occur to make it practical I'd love to see a serial series hybrid that charges itself to full every time the AER runs out, then stops burning gas altogether for another 40 miles.

 

All this seems OT. I don't think volt sales are dependant on some obscure definition. The idea of running pure electric though is one reason volt sales are in the thousands instead of the hundreds of units.

You also need the battery and transmission to allow it to operate here. The prius phv motor is large enough, but I don't know the transmission can handle pure electric, and the battery is definitely not sized properely for an erev.

This seems to get argued alot, but those arguing seem to be just whining like spoiled children.

No one needs an erev but many want one

I never realized someone had undersizing a battery as a best practice. Is there some book this is in? I do know that there are sometimes engineering tradeoffs, of doing inferior design to save cost. Is that your definition of best practices? Choosing the inferior but less expensive design? Should not some utility be given for better design, as it was at my university.

I'm not sure what that means.

Lower oil consumption is not necessarily part of it. It may be harder to design an engine that sits that long. Quieter ride often has to do with smooth engines, so that is implementation detail. I hope you don't mind, me changing your list.

1) Higher potential for gasoline free miles, less gasoline used if driven appropriately. This gives better chance to reduce dependence on oil.

2) More constant acceleration that to many feels better. Lower engine/motor noise.

3) Given a high enough penetration level and good electrical policies, the ability to greatly reduce pollution especially in big cities.

This again is a trade off. A future tesla s may be ideal but most expensive. For those with typical 40 mile or less round trip commutes the volt is an impressive car, but much more expensive than a prius, which is much more expensive than a versa.

Discussion often is just shouting ones opinion the loudest. I hope those shouting against the volt, understand some of the tradeoffs better, especially


Here we go in a line

versa -> focus -> prius -> volt -> leaf -> tesla

At every step you give up something, but get something in return . From versa to focus all you are giving up is money, and that is the same from leaf to tesla. From versa to prius the cost more than doubles, as it does again from prius to tesla. For many the prius is the sweet spot on fuel economy versus cash, but others want more performance, or less gas, or don't want to spend the money.

 

It would seem that way if you focus only on the biggest tree in the forest.

Looking at the other trees, you'll see that Toyota has pushed NiMH to the point of being so robust & affordable that replacement of traditional vehicles on the grand scale is becoming realistic.

None of this halo nonsense. It's the real thing, actually phasing out vehicles which don't take advantage of motors & batteries to improve emissions & efficiency.
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EPA has two different labels for PHEVs, one for Series and another for Blended. Both are catagorized as Plug-in Hybird Vehicle.

The only way for EREV to get back to CD mode is after recharging from a plug. To recharge the battery from gas engine, you'll need the 4th mode, perhaps charge increase (CI) mode. It will be the least efficient and desirable mode. I don't think there is an official engineering term for it.

 

I agree is not religion, it is engineering. Engineers define meaningful classes and concepts to help with precise discussion, measurements and processes. Your preferences for the use of a term does not make that usage correct.

You might want to read Chapter 5 of
Hybrid Electric Vehicles: Principles and Applications with Practical ...
By Chris Mi, Abul Masrur, M. Abul Masrur, David Wenzhong Gao

They pretty clearly describe the difference between EREV PHEV and Blended PHEV, both in terms of design and eventually on performance.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on if GM accomplished its goals. As a Volt owner and actual Ph.D. I'm confident in my assessment they did, though clearly you apply a different set of definitions and logic.

You clearly don't understand the Volt. The Volt Electric engine can provide all the power needed for any driving. The 45% minimum SOC for MM is because the ICE ENGINE cannot provide enough power for all situation. The 25% minium SOC for normal usage is to protect the battery for too deep a discharge.

Your statements on battery chemistry and temperatures are irrelevant with respect to EREV definitions. You appear to just be trying, desperately, to bash the volt.

Sorry your wrong again. See
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/cafe/FE-label/FE-label_final_rule_05252011.pdf
where they clearly state

They clearly differentiate between simultaneous use of both gas/electricity, defining that as blended.
Later that document defines different labels for the two classes.

My EREV looks great in my garage. Yes I've followed it and watch it go from Idea to product and I bought one before a "Pip" was even officially announced. My last fill-up was Oct 29 and since then I've gone 1268.89miles using 5.14909 gallons for 246.43 MPG. My fuel costs per mile, including gas and electricity, are about 3.26 cents/mile. Let me know when you get that level of from your Pip and I'll reconsider if I should listen to your claims about what is more efficient and what is a better strategy and if the Volt is an EREV. Until then I'll just agree to disagree.

 

Not being able to easily recite that here helps to confirm the lack distinctness.

By the way, that "Considered a Prius, Bought a Volt." signature sends an interesting message. Do you intend it to mean the plug-in model?
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Huh? We clearly know that EV range, CS efficiency, and MSRP price all came up short. In 4 days, we'll hear about the sales goal not being accomplished too. What is there to disagree with?
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Hmm many of these are wrong (and some are just Volt specific.. glad to see you've decided a volt is a EREV). There are 3-4 real negatives here others are restating the same thing or just flat wrong. Here are a few corrections:

Curb weight of an 2011 Equinox is more than a 2011 Volt.

Acceleration? Motor-trends comparison has the Volt with better 0-40, 0-50, 0-60, 0-70, -80, 0-90 40-60 than a Prius.
2011 Chevrolet Volt vs 2011 Nissan Leaf SL vs 2011 Toyota Prius III Comparison - Motor Trend. The Karma EREV blows them all out of the water.

Tailpipe Emissions depends on how you measure it.. EREV is better than blended if most trips are pure EV.

Not sure about the GCG, the only studies I've seen on that are flawed but not going to discuss that here, since its also easily solved by paying for renewable electricity.

You have 4 negatives on battery. Battery size is a function of expected AER, not EREV vs blended. Battery size determines charge times and need (and strongly impacts costs). Personally I only charge on 120v. I also like to eat dinner and sleep every day so my garage "queen" is not an issue while I'm doing that.

 

But if you don't own a Prius...why bother coming here where many are "suspicious"?
Technically speaking, make sure you firmly step over proven arguments, some people here just have knowledge and hybrid/plug-in years of experience, enough for each one of us to learn in Priuschat forum.

 

Have to say you should stick to the post requirements (same batt size, same ICE), please. Just to avoid Volt-Pip direct comparisons, it was not intended to.

 

Back on topic, any predictions for total 2011 Volt sales?

Given the figures we saw in October and November, I'll go ahead and guess 7,500 for the year (heck in most American education systems that is still passing [C] when the standard is 10,000)

 

Not sure what you meant by the first comment. I was citing a chapter in a book, that discusses many dimensions of distinctness.

My previous car was a 1995 Honda Del Sol. It was getting long in the tooth and in 2008 I test drove then rented a Prius for a few days (on a company road trip) to see if I liked it enough. Decided then if I had too (i.e. honda died) it would be okay. I talked/rode with fellow faculty that have a Prius Plug In Conversion and they convinced me to dig deeper so as an entering/innovation faculty I started reading a lot on the two alternatives (including what I must presume is your nice article with figures to explain the PSD). I did my estimations of cost/fuel (including potentially adding PV) and lots of reading here. Since I had little first-hand info I did not post on any of the site (Gm-volt, myleaf, priuschat, tesla fourms) that I frequented, but I read a lot.

Last Dec the Honda had a hick-up and my wife and I rented a more upscale 2010 Prius for a week. It was nice but still I was very interested in a mroe EV version I was hoping the PiP would have larger range (at 30miles I might have gone there, though everything I read about the Pip 2010 Preproduction models and its limitations left me waiting. Toyota was offering too little to late.

I find it ironic when people like USB bash gm for not delivering on its dream, when I see what toyoto had, and with companies like Boulder Conversions making kits because Toyota did not with a PiP years ago. They did not fall short on promises, because they sat on their hands. And the PiP is so minor an increment on the Prius as to be a disappointment. I hope and expect it will sell well, just was not enough for me.

So I was stil holding out for the Volt and the EREV design, and the Tesla BEV but was not buying a car without a test drive and local shop. Honda came back from service, I decided since it only had 120K Miles so should have been good for many more I would wait to see how the Volt went and what Tesla pricing/timing was. Leaf was considered but the practical range was just too short, I could not make some of my longer day trips or the airport runs.

Last summer, my local Chevy dealers were trained and could take orders but did not have demos. My wife and I availed ourselves to test drive a Volt (and out-of state car) and I was hooked. It was peppier than my honda, and quality was much better than I expected from a Chevy. Tesla timing for the 230m now seemed farther out and the pricing considerably higher. The first 7 months history on the Volt (and info on gm-volt.com and voltstats.net) gave me confidence it was real and the quality as good. I decided the market timing was good to sell some stock, went out of state making it a road-trip vacation and drove home my Volt. Averaged 42mpg for my driving home (and 39 for my wife), with a trip average of 41mpg which was nice. (Del Sol was 33-37 depending on the driver/road).

I have been extremely happy with my decision. I find my self wanting to drive the Volt just for the fun of it -- I'll volunteer for short trips to the store. My wife also really likes it. The power and quite are wonderful.

I can make my daily commute+small errands (32-40 miles) regularly on pure EV, and have done maybe 8 trips of 120+ miles plus the drive home. Life time MPG is 115 (and climbing 3-4 MPG per week). I the past months its been about 240mpg, with fuel costs averaging .0326 cents per mile. And I'm paying extra for all renewable energy.

As an Educator I get somewhat annoyed with misinformation. I had been on PriusChat enough to know there was some volt misinformation here as well even more on the Leaf site. Having invested a lot of time in educating myself I decided that when I had some time I would try to address some the biases and misinformation on the sites. Other people will be researching their choices and valid information is important. Being on sabbatical gave me a bit more time.. and since I'm shifting areas and now doing research/proposal on Hybrid control and efficiency, I started posting. I started on MyNissianLeaf because there was some particularly agressive folks with anti-volt posts there, then came back here to post mostly in volt-related threads.

 

Remember the 10k was only a corrected figure, as recently as May of this year Volt sales estimates were 25,000, this from GM CEO. The sales have been an unmitigated disaster. There is no way in God's green earth that the board is pleased with how the Volt has fared this year.

 

What is your basis for that.
The 10000 figure was set back in 2008 and formalized in 2009 (e.g. see 2011 Chevy Volt at 2009 L.A. Auto Show - KickingTires)

The closest I could find to a 25000 claim was
Report: GM to double Chevrolet Volt output to 120,000 in 2012 | egmCarTech

Which seemed to be an exuberant ramp up not that 10K was a correction. That was dropped resolved later when they decided not to go to two shifts at the plant after the July retooling.

The board could easily be happy with the sale, and the halo affect. The recent fire related bad press, not so much. But the board may have known of the fire issue back in June and hence the decision to not ramp up may have been not to produce too many if they don't yet know the cause/fix.

 

I believe many of the "holding back" of Toyota had to do with costs of Li-ion batteries, not enough information about reliability (reminds me of the text in the test PiP manual "traction batteries may not last the car's life"), and multiple "details" regarding the final version (heat pump?, modes?, ideal SOC range, Kw, etc.).

If you studied the conversion kit systems, you may have read about the problems that inevitabily came up.
And the quality of batteries have been improving, as a main issue.

At Toyota they have been testing it for 5 years, AFAIK. I feel surprised that a PiP would disappoint anyone with sensible knowledge when finally for sale. Besides, a 14 year old Prius, leading hybrids, is an anchor for dependability perception.