Volt Sales Figures

What would make you doubt that the EV ability we've heard about for "city" isn't realistic?
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I haven't seen anything from Toyota to make me believe the car will get 118 mpge for 15 miles or 87 mpge for 30 miles. What I see is 87 mpge for 15 then 49 mpg. I don't really want to argue about it, becuase I may be wrong and it will get cleared up when the sticker comes out.

Til then Merry Christmas to all and may dreams of electric cars dance in your heads.

 

Just to be clear about the blendes range... Some miles would be on battery while some heavy acceleration or high speed miles would use gas. 15 "city like" miles on battery and 15 other miles on gas could stretch it to 30 blended miles. After learning 3kWh with charging loss from the Japanese PiP, I think EPA blended range would be around 20 miles.

Volt does not have the ability to blend so the battery handles every heavy acceleration and high speed driving, wastefully.

 

You can arguably "blend it" with mountain mode. If you choose to... Chevrolet Volt tricks: Using Mountain mode to preserve range
It really isn't that clear cut of a case.

 

As many/most drivers make their daily commute using just battery, its not clear the volt is doing anything wastefully. It's 93MPG rating so maybe by driving agressive and uphill I'm only being 90% efficient (31Mile EV range), it would still be 83mpge, and all of that would be on electricity. Blended is always wasting gas if you could have done the trip without it.

I drive 70-75mph on the highway, drive up hills and in the 30-35temps I still get 35-37 real miles per charge. (Summer was +10 EV miles) Only time I got down below 31 EV miles was a trip were I took the volt to its internal speed limit for quite a while (and had the heater blasting for my passengers). Don't expect a PiP will get 80's MPGe in blended mode at 75mph.

 

Yes, it is a "hack" and it defeats the purpose of EREV. The mountain mode was added because the battery could not maintain maximum power when it reaches certain state of charge.

It was not intended to operate as a hybrid. It does speak volume to see Volt owners using it to operate like a hybrid. That validates the benefits of the blended approach. It is not surprising because all the upcoming plugin hybrids from Ford and Honda will be blended hybrids that focuses on the practicality instead of showboat engineering.

 

Volt requires 36kWh to go 100 miles. The sample blended plugin hybrid requires 17kWh to go the same distance because the gas engine helps out when beneficial. It goes 50 miles (vs. 35) with half the Volt's battery capacity (and recharge time). It should also run on regular gas since the problem of gas going stale is avoided. This is the synergistic effect when two powertrains work together.

HV mode MPG is also higher than the Volt. I think the sample blended plugin hybrid resembles the C-Max Energi (much bigger than Volt).

 

Why is it so hard for you to recognize that there is a value of not burning gas when the situation permits? There are many scenarios that under daily driving of less than 60 miles that Volt can achieve by burning least amount of gas. Likewise PIP’s approach will be better when daily driving is regularly about 70-100 miles. Is it really a zero-sum game that only one approach is valid and all other methods are bad?

 

Your assertions of the reason for Mountain Mode is not fully correct. While its true that no battery can maintain max power when the SOC is low enough (e.g. nearly dead), that is not why MM is needed. Rather it is that the the 83hp (1.4L ICE) cannot provide sufficient power to keep driving at high speed up long mountain stretches. (It can provide some direct power + drive the 74hp (55kw) generator, but its total power is still 83hp.) By resetting the "minimum" SOC to a higher level, the car will have much larger battery reserves to draw on to power the 149hp primary traction motor up those long hills. It counts on the fact that even mountain roads are not constantly up hill, and so when going down hills its regen + route excess ICE power to the generator and rebuild the battery buffer. This allows "averaging" the power demand over a much longer time windows. Having done I70 in the Volt, it was amazing, full left lane speed with passing power well beyond my wife's outback (135hp) or my previous Honda.

You might note Prii's, with their <100hp engine, also have problems with long enough hills, see
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-modifications/13993-prius-driving-up-mountain.html
where there is a post about having a max speed of 35-40 mph in the rockies because the battery got depleted. Maybe a PiP should have a mountain mode, :lol:

Yep, MM can be used as hack, and can improve efficencies in the rare situations when you know you'll need to use gas anyhow. The most common "hack" use is NOT to act like a blended mode hybrid, but to force hybrid CS mode earlier, and save EV charge. A "hold mode" the the Volt/Apmera get in theEU would be much better but apparently the EPA did not approve that. (It is curious that PiP has an EV (anti-hold) mode, but maybe if they are classified/tested as a PHEV with 0 AER, that is okay with the EPA.

The use of MM, as in the cited article, to save pure EV power for city driving (where its more efficient) is not at all a validation of a blended approach.

The second most common "hack" with MM, is for people to force hybrid (CS) mode earlier when its cold outside and they know they will be using the full range anyhow. This allows the ICE to help heat the cabin earlier. Again a Hold-mode would be better.

However, no use of MM is a validation of blended. The end-user, knowing what they will be doing, are choosing hybrid mode, or EV mode at any particular point in time. That is not like a blended use of EV + hybrid. The while point is that no car will know what you plan to do in the future, but you do, so you can choose which mode EV or hybrid, that best suits there plans. Its really good the PiP has an "EV" button, it would be annoying for it to decide blended was better when really the users was just running out on a 8 mile jaunt for groceries.
A users is the only one with a good prediction of the future and why they should be able to choose their mode. The EPA really messed that one.

 

I do acknowledge the benefit of not burning gas in certain rare situations. I also recognize that carrying more dead weight work against other more frequent situations.

I am not saying one size should fit all, just pointing out the most practical balance solution at an affordable price at the right time.

 

You are misreading the form. The sample blended PHEV used 1 gallon of gas plus 17kWhr to go 100 miles. (Which is misleading scaled from only 50miles, which is .5 gallons + 8.5 kWhr). I It use about 30% less electricity (8.5 vs 12.9) but uses nearly 25% more gas! ( Personally I'll chose to use less gas, my electricity is renewable and costs me $.05 a kw-hr at night!)

You statements about battery pack size are also wrong.
The sample PHEV form does not state the pack size. It battery usage for the 50 miles is likely about 80% of the Volt.

One way to see this is that its blended range is only 50 miles and is rated at 17kWhr/100 miles, so it only battery pack uses 8.5kWh (probably needs to be a 10 or 12kWh pack). So the sample is way more than a PiP which is 4.4kWh total. I'd guess the sample is based on a Prius-Conversion kit with a 10kW-hr pack. The national labs that help drive the standards/testing have been evaluating those for a while.

The Volt's usable is about 10kW-hr (from 16 kW-hr, with the rest of the pack ensuring the charge/discharge cycles are always in the sweet spot).

The second way to see it is to note form says its 4 hrs of recharge time @240v which is pretty much the same as the the Volt takes 4-5hrs @240v. And it could be even larger since if one charged at 6.6kWh (Full L2), that a 4 hour charge could be 24kw pack, but that is just a problem with the silly form.

So looking at it two different ways, the sample which has 65MPGe blended used a pack much larger than a PiP. I think your deluding yourself think the Form is about a PiP or that the 87MPGe will be for anything near 50 miles. I hope the PiP has good numbers, but I don't expect it can radically improve beyond the Volt's blended average, but only time will tell.

 

Every driver's driving situation is different and we can only do our best to guesstimate. For drivers that can use the electric range efficiently to the design then that is the better solution. If you read the article that I linked you will see that in Volt destined to other country there is a preserve mode to use electric miles where it’s most efficient. As for the purpose of EREV, my purpose is to have an insurance to go as far as I need to on occasion, while I will try to drive as a BEV as much as I can to minimize gas consumption. As far as I can tell from most people surrounds me as single professionals, those situations that enable Volt driver not to burn gas are “not” rare. I really wanted to fit my life into Leaf. But eventually realize it may not be possible.
I went back to considered a Prius and decided although economically better but I could still further reduce my gas usage by going with Volt. The effect for pure electric driving for most of the time will convince more people who otherwise may doubt if they have to modify their lifestyle too much to use BEVs. The design of first generation EREVs are not as efficient as it can be under specific situations as you pointed out. (also not without errors as drinnovation mentioned) Would that situation be improved for a second generation? I believe it would, just as Prius’s synergy drive improves on each generation.

 

Don't mean to sound negative but that act alone (the moment you blend gas before the battery is depleted) violates the EREV fundamental.

Yup, another example of incomplete EREV engineering. EV does not use gas engine to warm the cabin, hybrids do.

 

It only violates the fundamental when you believe the range extender can "only" serve as extending range. I apologize if I sounded rude. But this is one example of overzealous EV supporters would do to prove their way is the only “good” way to achieve a common goal--burning less gas when it's practical.

 

I think PiP will have a blended range of 20 miles or more. At 20, we are looking at 40% at 87 MPGe and 60% at 49 MPGe. The composite number should come out higher than Volt's 60 MPGe.

 

That does not violate EREV fundamentals at all. An EREV provides full EV performance sufficient for normal usage and extended range driving with ICE support for longer trips. If you are aware of a more formal definition that matches your statement we should correct them before they propagate the error. If the trip is long enough that I MUST use gas, then when I use the range extender on the trip is not an issue from an EREV point of view. In the EU, providing that option is necessary if you want the car to be allowed to be an "EV" in downtown london. If you want the EREV can act as an EV in the inner city, its exactly what you do, and hence the EU Volt (the first EREV) gets HOLD mode in the EU. Seems to be part of the first, definitive EREV definition.

And as long as I end up at home with the battery depleted, nothing is wasted either.

Its the hybrids that are incomplete. I prefer a more complete design where I get a choice of power source and if I want heat. (Again Hold mode was in the Volt EREV design, its just EPA keeps the US owners from being able to use it). Personally I don't want the ICE to provide me heat when I'm doing short trips under 30mins. Heated seats are more than enough for me. Others may want ICE heat, and that is their choice. THe more complete design gives users the choices.

 

We can agree on that. No need for an apology as your posts are constructive with reasons, unlikely some of the Voltards on certain forum.

 

Wouldn't it be more efficient if all 20 miles of driving can be powered by renewable eletrons?

 

The concept of EREV (Volt) was presented as an EV for the first 40 miles (until battery depletes) and then use the gas engine to extend the range by generating electricity and gas not directly power the wheels.

The production model violates EREV concept in so many ways. I could list them out in detail if you want to go there.

 

Yes, IF powered by renewable electrons. Unfortunately, vast majority of the electricity are from non-renewable.

PiP battery size was chosen to prevent the increase in GHG using average US electricity, per the recent well-to-wheel DOE report.

It is probably benificial to pointout now that EPA MPGe and MPG numbers does not take account of well-to-plug/pump. Therefore, it favors the electricity.