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Disabling DC/DC Converter Fuse Removal

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Calle, Dec 10, 2011.

  1. 2009Prius

    2009Prius A Wimpy DIYer

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  2. Calle

    Calle New Member

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    That equation is entirely unrelated to this topic. The power required to drive a vehicle at a constant speed (15.2kw) is unrelated to a power draw on an electrical system measured in watt hours.
     
  3. 2009Prius

    2009Prius A Wimpy DIYer

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    Think about it again and I hope we will agree that the equation is indeed relevant. :)
     
  4. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    This is the same problem facing people that want to do PHEV on the high voltage side. If the power produced by the extra PHEV pack pales in comparison to the power required to push the car forward, then there is little impact on MPG.

    If you are trying this in a taxi cab, where you have long periods of standing idle, then you might see a significant improvement. If you are a commuter, not so much.
     
  5. vertex

    vertex Active Member

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    Calle's converter plan is flawed. The regulators he specifies are linear voltage regulators, not switching, so they are only 50% efficient at 24 volts. They would also be a huge heater! The system would also need to seemlessly switch the Prius DC/DC invertor back in when the 12 volt pack is discharged. I would suggest using Li Ion batteries directly, and spoof the sense line with a small boost converter so it keeps the DC/DC off until the Li Ion is discharged, and then have its output run the 12 VDC and not recharge the Li Ion battery, or you will just use up all the saved fuel. The car's lead acid battery could be replaced with a much smaller one to save weight. The car only needs a few amperes of current for a short period of time until the ready light is on.
     
  6. Calle

    Calle New Member

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    It is only relevant during ICE operation during cruising or acceleration. Maybe it is not entirely irrelevant, and you are correct that it would technically be a 4% increase in that condition, but the reason it is not entirely relevant is because nobody spends 100% of their drive time cruising with the ice on at peak efficiency.

    In my 33 mile commute, I have 10 miles on a highway, and 20 miles in stop and go traffic with many lights where the ICE is off. For those 10 miles on the highway I would be getting about 4% as you said, however a 600 watt drain on a car going 0MPH has a much greater effect. On top of that, cruising at 15kw is the ideal power band for best efficiency. You cannot say that if you spend 3 minutes at at light and lose 1.5% SOC that your engine is going to run at that same peak efficiency to replace that lost charge. In fact, if you get caught in a situation where the ICE kicks on to replenish the battery while you are at a light, then that 600whr has a much more devastating effect on mileage considering the ICE is running far more inefficiently to work to replace that power.

    To digress, I appreciate your input, and this experiment is one of the reasons I am trying to get your Priidash up and running (laptop crashed and I have not been able to upload those files!). None of this would be possible without the use of Priidash I would add.
     
  7. Calle

    Calle New Member

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    Vertex you are 100% correct about the efficiency and heat. My power supply design would only be 50% efficient, and probably less since I will have tons of heat to remove. However, the sense line does not determine whether or not the DC/DC runs. It simply tells the converter what voltage to work at based on battery charge state. The only proper way to run this system would be with a disable Prius converter. It would be nearly impossible to do a current sharing system with the prius converter. In order to force the Prius coinverter to NOT provide power, my system would need to run at a higher voltage than the Prius converter. This is dangerous and could easily backfeed into the Prius converter and destroy it. I would need to install a blocking diode which is simply to much work. It would be easier to just disconnect it, or preferably install a relay to connect/disconnect it. In the case that my unit runs out of power. Your idea about the LiOn batteries is a good one, but I am trying to keep this as cheap as possible simply to get my results. Depending on the results will depend if I want to permanently implement this in my car. So far my costs are as follows:

    3 x 105Ah 12V SLA Batteries: $25/ea (brand new)
    Electronic Components: $30 total
    24V Charger: $80
     
  8. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Where are you able to get 100ah of any type of lead acid for $25, new? I'll take 40 at that price.

    If your 30 mile commute takes an hour, then you may see ~10% improvement in MPG.
     
  9. Calle

    Calle New Member

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    There is a scrapyard near me that sells the batteries. They get about 3 in per week. They are SLA industrial type. Where they get them I do not know, but everytime I've bought batteries from them, they give you a 90 day warranty as well as the warranty on the battery itself, and the date of mfr is always within 2 months.
     
  10. alanh

    alanh Active Member

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    I'm dubious of anything in the "10% improvement" range unless it's confirmed by a dynamometer, or at least by a 3rd party driver unaware of the modifications.

    10% is easily within differences caused by driving habits, weather, or traffic trends. It's simply a fact that people expecting an improvement see one because they unconsciously change their driving habits. You just can't measure an improvement this small without some objective testing.
     
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  11. 2009Prius

    2009Prius A Wimpy DIYer

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    Point well taken but an exception would be, for example, in my case I have already tried everything to improve MPG for my daily commute and found an envelope in the MPG vs. T plot that seems to be the ceiling. In that case a 10% change of the ceiling would be easy to measure without any ambiguity. Unfortunately I just don't have the skills to do this mod.
     
  12. vertex

    vertex Active Member

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    Calle:
    The DC/DC has a constant voltage output. Connect it only to the car's 12 volt battery. Connect your system to the rest of the 12 volt system. Put a 100+ amp diode from the 12 volt battery to your system. When your output dies, the car will seamlessly switch to normal operation with only about 1 volt less on the 12 volt buss, not enough of a drop to give you problems.
     
  13. Calle

    Calle New Member

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    I am not quite sure I understand your suggestion here. You can't really ONLY connect the DC/DC to the battery. The battery is tied in with the entire system including the DC/DC. The battery has only one positive connection and it runs to the DC/DC as well as the junction box to power everything else. The only way to run two systems at the same time effectively is to run them in parallel and run MY system at a higher voltage than the Prius' converter. In theory this seems like it would be fine since the car would eat out of whichever converter is at a higher voltage and the other would sit idle. However, it is impossible to properly current share the two converters thus making it possible for my system to backfeed into the Prius DC/DC potentially damaging it. I would need to put a blocking diode on the Prius converter, which is a really big undertaking....Could you explain what you are talking about a little clearer?
     
  14. Calle

    Calle New Member

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    To test the mod, I would absolutely do an objective test. I would do both tests in the same day to keep the wind and temperature roughly the same, on the same road, at the same speeds for the same amount of time. I would also do a mixed driving test (city/hwy) in where I drive the same route making the same stops and I will have set speeds at which to drive and a specific RPM range to stay within. The whole purpose of this is to get real results. I would be doing myself and the test a great injustice by being biased just to get a desired outcome. Again I state my projections to be:

    5% all highway
    10-15% mixed
    15-20% all city (lights, stop signs, etc

    I would assume an additional 3-5% for cold, night time, or rainy conditions or a combination thereof.
     
  15. Clv1471

    Clv1471 Junior Member

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    Supply a voltage to the battery just above the voltage you measure when the car is in 'Ready' this will cause the dc to dc converter to stop running as it will thing the battery is fully charged = your circuit will be carrying the load, if however your circuit can't supply all the load, such as when the rear screen demister is on, the voltage from your circuit will sag, causing the inbuilt dc to dc converter to supply the difference - in ideal solution that requires no modification to the prius electrics other than a simple connection to the 12DC fia a fuse to the 12 battery.