My Hymotion battery is dead. RIP. Almost 3 years of service.

Question from the newbie - if warranty had expired, any idea roughly how much it would cost to get it replaced?

 

Man I hope I never have to find out.

 

Now, I'm getting the 3 flashes ...and my warranty expired about 2-1/2 months ago.

 

They talk about two options, but they keep steering me towards the one that will draw less attention to the fact that they're not going to provide any real service for their product. THEY WANT ME TO PAY A COUPLE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A SMALL ELECTRICAL PART!!!

Perhaps they should be reminded about the safety warning that they put in their manual (that we should not turn off the system while driving at highway speeds, because the cruise control could fail and cause the car to go out of control).

NEWS FLASH: When the DC-to-DC converter fails (3 flashes), the system stops working ...while you are driving.

Hmmm... It seems to me that a company that wants to avoid serious legal issues would treat this as a safety recall. After all, they fixed the problem a long time ago, and they would only have to replace the part for a relatively small number of their early customers.

I'm just sayin'...

Arthur


-----Original Message-----
From: A123 service manager
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:40 PM
To: Arthur Brenner
Subject: RE: 3 flashes after warranty expires

​

Hi Arthur,
To answer your question; your pack can be sent out and repaired so that you can continue with your original pack. You won’t get it back in one week, and it will most likely cost more than installing a refurbished pack. The most common reason why the pack would not take a complete charge is due to imbalanced cells – meaning a module, or modules need to be replaced. I don’t have a price on modules, but the batteries themselves are the most expensive items in the pack. Add to that the cost of a rental car, hotel, etc. We are working with a third party that is doing the pack refurbishing so I cannot guarantee the turn-around time, but I’m guessing that it would be closer to two + weeks. Keep in mind that it takes 3 – 4 days shipping to Michigan each way…

You could have your pack pulled out and have Westborough put back the interior so you could drive your car while waiting for your pack to be repaired. This would keep the car rental bill from spiraling, but you would pay a bit more for added labor.

A refurbished battery pack would come with a 90 day warranty and you would be in and out the same day. If keeping costs in line is part of your objective, I would think this is the way you would want to go.

I can talk this through with Westboro Toyota if you still want to pursue keeping your same pack. Let me know.

Sincerely,

A123 service manager

From: Arthur Brenner
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 7:30 PM
To: A123 service manager
Subject: RE: 3 flashes after warranty expires



Dear A123 service manager,



I talked with Westboro Toyota, today. They quoted me a price of $1500 plus labor for what you referred to as the "purchase a refurbished battery pack" option. They seemed confused when I mentioned the other option (sending my pack out to be repaired).

I told them that my guess was that I was the first person they've had seeking service, out-of-warranty. They confirmed that. So, I told them that I wasn't surprised that there was a little confusion. I told them that I'd contact you and verify what you had said.

I'd like to keep this as simple as possible, and I'd also like to keep the same battery pack. After your last email, I tried charging my pack. The tail lights came on, and I heard the fan running, and, the next morning, my Kill-a-Watt meter showed 1.86 kWh had been used to charge the pack. That's not surprising, because it crapped out when I still had at least half a charge left in the battery.

So, the pack seems perfectly fine, in terms of its ability to be charged. It's just that some failure is preventing me from USING that charge.

What seems simplest to me is to leave my car there for a week and get Westboro Toyota to provide me with the least expensive loaner car they have available. I'm going to have to make two round trips, anyway. This way, they won't have to put everything back together in the back of the car. Also, they will be able to make sure that the pack is fixed and reinstalled and working fine, BEFORE I come back to get it.

Of course, that sort of assumes that the pack can be sent out, repaired, and sent back, in less than a week. Can we make this work? Can the people who will be fixing it let me know which week (presumably sometime next month) is best for them. Then, I can drive up and back, on a Saturday, and do the same thing the following Saturday. That saves me the cost of motels.

I think I'm being pretty flexible, here. So, even if there is some delay (e.g., the need to order a part), and it takes an extra week, I would be fine with that. I would just ask that they pay the cost of my loaner car, for the extra week, which shouldn't be much, since I'll probably put less than 100 miles on it, driving around Corning, during that week.

So, I guess I'm asking for two things, here:



1) For someone to communicate with Westboro Toyota, and explain to them how the "sending my pack out for repair and getting it back" option will work.

2) I'm asking for a "turn-around time" of one week, and letting them schedule it for a week of their own choosing. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

Let me know what can be arranged, or if I should contact someone else to request this arrangement.

Thanks.



Arthur





-----Original Message-----
From: A123 service manager
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:19 AM
To: Arthur Brenner
Subject: RE: 3 flashes after warranty expires

Arthur,

There is nothing that I can offer for you to try. It’s possible that it is starting off as an intermittent fault, but go then go to a terminal situation. You can certainly try charging the battery again and look for the tail lights to come on and listen for the fan to run.

There are two ways that you can go about getting your Hymotion system fixed. You can either have Westboro send your pack out to get repaired then return when Westboro receives back your repaired pack, or opt for the exchange program whereby you would go to Westboro, purchase a refurbished battery pack and drive off with a working system the same day.

In your case, it may be only the electronics that need to be repaired. If you are happy with the capacity of your pack and want to continue with the same cells you may want to go with option #1. You would have to make the trip to the dealer twice and I suspect that you will pay a bit more for labor as Westboro will have to put the interior back together after removing the battery, then take it out again to reinstall. There is a chance that the cost for the repaired pack could be less, however.

Option #2 would be the set cost scenario, would save you from making the trip twice, and would have you back on the road the same day. From a cost perspective, I couldn’t tell you which would be the less expensive option for you.

Sincerely,


A123 service manager

From: Arthur Brenner
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:08 AM
To: A123 service manager
Subject: Re: 3 flashes after warranty expires



Dear A123 service manager,



Okay, thanks.

I guess the only other thing is that, since it's a long (but probably inevitable) trip to Westboro, I'd like to be ABSOLUTELY certain that this is not some kind of fluke that will magically disappear when I get there. That seems unlikely, but if there's anything that you can tell me to try at home, to verify that this is NOT a problem that will go away, I would appreciate it.

Please understand, all I'm asking for is just enough help to make be sure that its not a problem caused by something in the Prius. Also, if this DOES seem like a known issue, please let me know if there is anything that I should NOT try to do.

For instance, I am pretty sure that there is still about a 1/3 charge on the battery pack, but I have not yet tried to charge it. If there is any reason that I should avoid charging it when it has this particular, 3-flash error, please let me know.

Thanks again for your quick response.

Once I'm sure that I need to make the trip to Westboro (which I feel 95% sure of, already), I will call Westboro Toyota and ask them about the worst-case scenario, price-wise.

In regard to that, you seem to be saying that swapping out for a refurbished pack would be a set cost, regardles of the end-cost incurred to A123 to refurbish MY pack. Is that correct?



Arthur




From: A123 service manager
To: Arthur Brenner
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:33 AM
Subject: RE: 3 flashes after warranty expires
Hi Arthur,



You will need to make an appointment with Westboro Toyota to verify the issue. Westboro can give you an estimate for a refurbished unit so you would have an idea of what the worst case scenario would be in the event that the unit needs to be swapped out.


Let me know if I can be of further assistance.



Best Regards,

Service Manager
A123Systems, Inc.

www.a123systems.com






From: Arthur Brenner
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:25 AM
To: A123 service manager
Subject: 3 flashes after warranty expires





Dear A123 service manager,





The warranty on my Hymotion system expired 2-1/2 months ago.

Yesterday (on the way to work), my system stopped working (the car just switched back to normal Prius operation), and I got 3 flashes on my red LED. On the way home, it worked okay.

This morning, the same thing happened (stopped working, 3 flashed), as soon as I pulled out of the driveway.

On the way home, the red LED wouldn't even come on, anymore, even though I know there's still charge in the battery.

Other people have said that this "3 flashes" is a sign that the "DC-to-DC converter" is failing or has already failed.

What are my options?

Thanks.





Arthur Brenner












​

 

That sucks Arthur. That's an expensive repair for something that is only 2 1/2 months out of warranty. Isn't there some sort of legal premise, I think it is the implied warranty of merchantability, that says that even though the warranty is expired, if a product becomes unusable after a short period of time that the manufacturer still bears some responsibility for the failure. I'm no lawyer, but I thought there was some sort of legal recourse you would have with something failing so close to the end of the warranty.

Anyway, keep us in the loop. Mine will be coming up on the end of its warranty soon as well so it would be nice if we could document a pattern of failures (if one exists) to help our case if it happens to other people.

 

It's of no use to Arthur, but in the Netherlands, a product has an expected lifecycle or better age. So a washingmachine will have a 2 year warranty, but a life-expectancy of about 10 years. One that fails after 5 years is therefor expected to be only halfway through it's expected life and therefor you can expect about a 50% discount from the manufacturer on your repair.

The part about the life-expectancy is a law I think, but how you get the manufacturer to fork over the 50% discount is something the law doesn't do for you: you have to get that by discussing, threatening with factual slandercampaigns on the net, get lawyers or consumer-groups involved, etc.

(I've discussed how an independent garage left me standing in the cold after changing the same part twice within a few months: their main office got involved because the garage wasn't allowed to handle these issues (it arose when they wanted to change it for the third time and I then found out they had replaced the right side twice instead of left and right as I had assumed. The left side was still the riveted, not bolted, original version from the factory). The main office messed up big time (the person handling the case was fired and no-one picked up the case: and this happened TWICE!!!). I slandered them (factually correct) on the net, someone read it and informed the small independent and they got in contact with me, apologized several times for the treatment from the main-office, payed back one part and gave the wife a big bouquet of flowers. I still won't go back there, but the grudge is gone).

???? <= I wanted to put an abbreviation of some cursing words there, but I'll try to stay civil.

I know I pay insane amounts for just about everything except for normal groceries (they are in line with the US I think), but I never knew even energy was that different. I pay 22ct, and that's apart from fixed costs per year. And that's 22ct €, so even at the dropping rates that is close to $0.30. And this is after they changed a part of the variable cost into fixed cost two years ago (punishing anyone who has solarpanels and supplies more that 50% of his own energy: me) or it would have been 27ct€ or $0.35 per kWh...

Lets look on the bright side: solarpanels earn me a lot more that they do over there

 

TheForce: That's excellent data - thanks for sharing and sorry for your woes. At least it should be a straightforward fix under warranty.

Arthur: I can understand your frustration and I do think your suggestions and tone in your emails with the service manager were good. However, as much as it sucks to be in this situation, it's one of those things that you'll have a heck of a time pursuing. If I were you and if you were otherwise happy with the Hymotion solution then I'd go with the $1500 refurbed solution. It sounds like a reasonable deal. I'm saying this only knowing what I've read - there may be much more to it. There will always be a cut-off line and there will always be someone just the other side of it. The other approach is DIY - do you know anyone who could help diagnose the problem and then have an independent fix it? That could easily end up costing as much as the refurb.

Just my 2 cents worth - because I've suffered similar woes with a very expensive Subaru and ended up cutting my losses in the end: I had my $36K Subaru fail with a KNOWN ISSUE for the second time after 80K miles. Sold it as scrap value for $3600 (and bought a Hyundai with a 100K mile warranty!). It first failed just outside warranty and the company and dealership appeared to me to do the "right thing" and they provided the parts free and charged a reduced labor rate to fix it. Next time around and the same basic problem but with more catastrophic effects. It wasn't until that point that it became clear to my wife and I that this was a known issue (why the heck didn't they warn us when they fixed it the first time). Look at Consumer Reports and you'll see that there are two years where the Legacy get's a bad rating - lucky us we had one of those cars. We tried, to no avail, to get Subaru to do "the right thing" a second time - the best they'd offer was a slight discount on a new car. Gee, thanks - but I don't think so. We could have maybe taken them to court and maybe won some sort of settlement. But there's too much unknown and WAY too much hassle and angst in that approach. Life's just too short. So we swallowed it. And our only recompense is to tell everyone we know of our woes and warn them not to buy Subaru. Not that that has any real effect (and if you take a large enough sample you'll see that they are actually good cars (bah, it sucks to be pragmatic!)).

Good luck with whatever you choose. BTW, a bigger picture solution is more transparency in the design, implementation and serviceability of the stuff we buy...

 

John,

The person I contacted at A123 and at the one I contacted at Fitzgerald Toyota (near Washington, DC), were both fairly reasonable people. They just did not have a workable system in place to deal with the problems I was having. There were also some mistakes made.

If you can afford to give up and accept bad service, that is your prerogative.

I can't afford to throw away what I have invested in my car. Since, I have the skills required to hold people's feet to the fire and get what I need, I usually tend to used those skills.

So, I got my battery pack fixed about a month ago, and it has been working fine.

I did NOT have to pay more than $1500.

My two cents for you: Don't be afraid to ask for what you need (and sometimes DEMAND it). For example, at one point in my "repair saga," I was told that my vehicle was fixed and ready for me to pick up. (I had left my Prius at Fitzgerald Toyota and driven a rental car home, in an attempt to save travelling expenses, or at least save gas.) When I got there, the battery pack was NOT working. It had not been tested by A123, before shipping it to Fitzgertald Toyota, and it had not been tested by Fitzgerald Toyota, before I arrived to pick it up.

I trusted them. I paid the bill. Then, I went outside to get my car. They said that it had been plugged in overnight. The Prius worked fine, but the Hymotion system was obviously completely non-functional (the red LED would not come on). It was a refurb unit that A123 had talked me into accepting because it was going to take much longer to get my original unit fixed.

So, here's what I did: I left the car parked where it was. I went back inside and asked to talk to a service manager. I told him what I needed him to do:
1) Void out the transaction that they had just charged to my credit card. (I told them that I would not pay for repairs that had not been done successfully.)
2) Remove the non-functional battery pack from my car and ship the car to my home, within 2 or 3 days.
3) Arrange with A123/Sybesmas to fix my original battery pack, whenever that became possible.

The service manager initially responded to #2 by saying that he did not have two people to spare to deliver my car to me. I explained to him that there were people who did that kind of thing for a living. I told him to "look it up on the internet and get it done!" The car was delivered to my house, a few days later, on a flat-bed truck, at minimal cost. A123 and Fitzgerald Toyota split the cost. I paid nothing. After all, I had already paid for a rental car and sacrificed a day of my life to pick up a car that had not been fixed.

Ask for what you need. Then, if necessary, help them figure out how to give it to you.

Arthur

 

Oh believe me we tried. We didn't just say "oh well, there goes thousands of dollars". Unfortunately, the second time around we were much further out of warranty and we didn't have any Norwegian style "expected lifetime" laws to leverage (can you imagine the MASSIVE lobbying effort that would ensue to prevent any such legislation in the USA!?!?!?) We were pretty much sunk.

Anyway, I'm glad you got your system fixed to your liking at a cost that was acceptable to you. Good for you!

Actually, the real moral of this story is I should pay attention to posting dates - and not just on the last post!! (This all occurred ages ago...)