Volt Sales Figures

I am not really expecting a big sales jump for the line overall, I would predict many people buying one of the new prii either already have a prius or otherwise would have gotten one. In other words I think you'll see liftback sales decline as the new models rise.

Take the C for example, I don't see a big market out there going "you know, I really want a prius, but its just so darn BIG".

The V has a better shot for people who didn't think there was enough utility in a prius, but from what I've seen it doesn't really measure up to the size of a minivan or SUV.

 

Imagine the gallons of gasoline they will save, without using any electricity!

There is no need to sacrifice one rear seat or put up with a compact size.

 

Serious question for you. When you say

, save compared to what?

 

In my previous post, I was comparing to the Volt.

 

That doesn't make sense, a conventional prius burns significantly more gasoline than a Volt.

For example I just rolled 12,400 miles on a little over 100 gallons of gas, a 50mpg prius would have burned 248 gallons to go the same distance. We can discuss the cost benefit analysis of the electricity consumed compared to the gallons saved, but on a straight gallons saved perspective the Volt is a clear winner.

 

Wow! You just did exactly what we've been complaining about!!!

Over and over, Volt owners exclude electricity consumption from their efficiency reports and dismiss the relevancy.

How are we suppose to react to that?
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By the way, why no estimate comparison to the plug-in Prius?
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Half of the electricity is bad (coal). A third of gasoline is bad (from unfriendly countries).

Volt enthusiasts are conditioned to think that electricity is 100% clean and free while gasoline is 100% evil. That really make them feel good driving the Volt, ignoring the reality.

Regarding PiP, I think it'll put 1/3 of the miles on electricity and 2/3 on gasoline. It'll be interesting.

 

So a 50 MPG Prius would use 148 more gallon than your Volt. However, your Volt would've used 4,570 kWh of electricity using EPA figures.

That amount of electricity in Delaware would emit 4,840 lbs of CO2, per eGrid. 148 gallon of gasoline would emit 2,871 lbs of CO2. Volt emit more CO2 than a no-plug Prius. For the tailpipe smog emission, Volt emit an order of magnitude more than Prius. You have done a disservice to this country's environment by driving the Volt instead of the Prius.

Volt vs Prius:


Below is Volt vs PiP Carbon Monoxide:


Exhaust Emission:


You mentioned leasing of solar panels. How are you making sure the electrons from the PV (not the dirty electron from the grid) are going into your Volt?

 

(edit), taking to another thread

 

Your numbers are bad.

Of my 12400 miles 70% were electric, or 8,680, the EPA numbers are the car uses 36 kwh per 100 miles which works out to 3125 kwh's.

That egrid site shows my CO2 emmission from the local grid as 1,059 lbs per Mwh (better than national average because we have double the average nuclear production). So for 3.125 Mwhs I used driving almost 9,000 miles in the last 8 months my grid produced and extra 3309.4 lbs of CO2. SO the difference is only 438 lbs of CO2 (about 20 gallons of gas worth).

Now with the PV in my additional drain on the grid from charging will be zero, so my CO2 emmission compared to the same prius over the next 8 months or so would have the prius generating more than an additional ton of CO2.

I'm in the fungible electricity camp. If my solar had been in 8 months ago and generated 3.125 Mwhs by now my net drain on the grid would be zero and none of their emissions would be due to increased demand from my household charging an EV, it makes no difference if they go direct to the car.

edit: BTW, subtracting the electric miles from the total I drove about 3720 miles on 100 gallons which works out real close to the EPA estimated mpg in CS.

 

I was responding directly to his "gallons of gasoline saved" comment, not discussing the overall efficiency in which case electric consumption would be relevant. On a "gallons of gasoline saved" front, the Volt trumps the prius (and is in turn trumped by the Leaf and all BEV's).

 

My bad, I forgot to take out the gas miles. However, my point is still valid as your Volt emitted more CO2 than if you were to drive a 50 MPG Prius.

I have 2 questions for you.

1) Do you think the electricity produced from solar is fungible with those generated from coal?

2) Fungibility aside, your Volt is powered by the electricity from the grid (mostly coal) so you are the polluter. To neutralize it, you pump the same amount of solar electrons back into the grid. That someone else who used those solar electrons is in fact the "green" guy. The net result is even but you are still the bad guy demanding coal electricity.

Wouldn't it be better if you drive the 50 MPG Prius and also pump solar electrons to the grid?

 

It's called cherry picking when you present only select information. Why not just always state both values?

As for the trump claim, that would require a 1-for-1 comparison. Looking at the big picture, sales quantity and alternative purchases tell a very different story.
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Yet those emissions still fall in SULEV II rating range. It's just the CO that puts the Volt at ULEV II.

Probably because it was a reply to a post about just the Prius.

 

I didn't compare to the plug in prius because comparison values are not yet available, once we get some EPA numbers I'll start taking a look at that. I suspect the Volt will still burn fewer gallons of gasoline.

usb,

I will concede that a conventional prius would have burned less co2 than I am responsible for in my Volt over the last 8 months (at least a new one, probably not my old beater with the failed traction battery). Emissions in general played no part in my car buying experience.

Yes I consider renewable electrons fungible with "dirty" electrons. So does everyone else. We don't waste time figuring out if my house's load is supplied more from the nuclear plant 15 miles away or the coal plant 40 miles away, we just look at the mix total production.

The coal plant has a certain amount of emissions, some part of that is related to the energy I use. If I put back the same as I use, then those emissions are not related to my portion of the demand.

Having the PV system and burning the extra ton of CO2 a prius would is nice, but just not emitting that 2700 lbs of CO2 or so with the Volt is better.

Also my local power is not mostly coal, its only about 42% coal, less than half.

 

You may want to understand some nuances of that camp when it comes to electricity. Electricity is fungible to the user but, there are transportation costs (transmission line losses) and not much infrastructure to store it. So from a producers point of view location and time is important. In your circumstances the time of generation is more valuable, and allows the utility to better manage, and transmission losses should be low. In a smart grid application if they come to you, the generation can be made even more efficient.

This is not universal. If you are in the middle of nowhere transmission line losses might hurt, or if the solar comes on at the trough of demand. In some cases natural gas from peaking plants will be reduced, while coal may not be throttled down as much at night. This will make the coal more efficient, but more will still be burned. The ideal long term though is solar + EV + smart grid will allow producers to add wind and reduce coal. That would be substituting gasoline and coal for sun and wind. Individual grids will dynamics and regulations change this, but electric use for generation allows frangibility of fuels for transportation in the long run. That can only be read as a positive.

 

So coal and gasoline are fungible too. Just convert them to electricity. See where I am going?

If you can cancel out coal CO2 with PV system, why not cancel CO2 from gasoline as well? The net CO2 emission is lower with the no-plug Prius.

Excuse my poorly chosen word. The largest contributor is coal (42%). Second is nuclear (40%). Third is natural gas (13%). 1% from oil. Fossil fuel add up to 56%.

 

oil is mainly fungible, so is electricity. Electricity can more easily substitute fuel sources, but it is costly to turn electricity into oil. From a economic POV A->B but B does not yield A. There are much better fuels to generate electricity than oil. This is pretty straight forward. Oil is more scarce, so if electricity can be substituted it is difficult. Either there needs to be a transition in vehicles or energy expensive creation of gas. The problem is availability and cost of vehicles that substitute electricity for gasoline. Does that make sense, inorder to make the transportation fuel fungible, a transition away from gas only powered vehicles is needed. Its hard to fill a prius with wind, but its relatively straightforward with a volt.

The savings from PV to the grid are independant of the car. The trouble is most utilities only give you full credit for the energy that you use, so there is a regulatory difference. I do not know if this is in gwmort's case. In most places you don't get all the subsidies if you produce more electricity than you use. So you could offset some of your SUV emissions with pv if this is ok where you are, I'm not sure what the prius is doing in this equation though. The prius is only applicable in the conversation if you have other factors than CO2 such as using less energy or other polutants. If you start thinking about using less energy, you may also want to use even less gasoline and substitute other fuels.

But it must be drilled out of your head that it is coal natural gas and wind are the biggest contributors to new power on the grid and both are cleaner and more plentiful than gasoline.

 

What is this thread about?

Are Volt sales figures fungible?