Planing CanView and BMS+ conversion with lithium

Hi Plugin,

Which brand of cells did you get, Calb 40ah?

I bought an Elcon charger at EVAssemble

http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=17

It is limited to a 5 amps output. It may also be used to charge the Prius NiMH directly as it is limited to max 5 amps output.


What are you going to use for balancing the cells? CellLog8s are really accurate and work well for me. But they only provide voltage protection and data logging but no balancing. I thought of getting a Orion BMS but it just too pricey. I could use my EV Display unit to monitor the SoC of a 230Vdc lithium pack and my miniBMS with 4 slave boards.

My EV function works perfectly, it does not kick me out of EV at coming to a stop. It may be caused by how you have setup the EV mode settings on your Canview. Unless you are referring to Stealth mode. The Canview PHEV screen shows the seven conditions you must meet in order to go into EV mode. If you watch them it may tell you which condition caused you to fall out of EV. You really need to read all the info on Norm's website to understand what it does.

 

Hi Plugin,

Have you made allowance for the CellLog8s not evenly drawing current from all cells. Solution is you only use CellLog8s connections for first six cells or modify each CellLog8s PCB by making a jumper connection.

Not using a balancer may be wise. Just do a manual balance now and then by connecting all cells in parallel for 24 hours. It would be a good idea to use a EV display unit which will give you an accurate SoC reading which also has outputs which you can use to shutdown when SoC reaches a low level.

Sounds like the BMSplus is throwing you out of EV mode during regen as it sends out a fake high SoC level. When the EV function is controlled by the BMSplus it knows when you have selected Auto EV and it can control it and lowers the fake SoC to a more real value when in EV mode to protect the NiMH battery. I am betting that if you connected a Canview relay to do the EV function this would not be a problem. Ask Norm. You also have to remember that at the moment you are not using extra battery packs in parallel which could be a factor involved.

From memory I think that when the BMSplus has the PHEV button switched off it uses Norm's algorithms to calculate actual SoC so maybe this could happen.

 

My Australian Prius comes with factory fitted EV switch. Relay one is reserved for EV mode. I just placed the two relay terminals across my EV switch. The current used by EV switch Is small so only the Canview relay was used.

Relay 4 is dedicated to PHEV, which I would use to energise a 200 amp contactor to engage the lithium pack. Not sure wether you need to use an extra relay, I cannot remember what the Canview relay contacts are rated for. Some users use the Canview relay to charge dump the NiMH pack which is what we are doing. Best to ask Norm if using this relay 4 to engage lithium pack is OK. Normally extra NiMH packs are connected directly in parallel permanently and no contactors are used to engage each one. I would not connect a lithium pack directly in parallel with a NiMH as the NiMH pack has a high self discharge rate which increases as SoC nears 80%. The lithium has a very small self discharge rate. The NiMH would bleed the lithium. A 230Vdc NiMH pack correlate with a NiMH SoC of 60% which is the lower target SoC used by the Prius under normal circumstances. The target drifts between 60 and 70 % SoC. I read in a forum that the Prius microcharges the Prius battery pack during normal operation to keep it between 60 and 70 % SoC. So having a lithium pack of 230Vdc is well chosen to avoid overcharging the HiMH. Even if the lithium enagage contactor should become welded close the NiMH is still protected from overcharge. It probably also avoids DTCs.

You really need to read Norm's website thoroughly.

I use relay 5 for my HV battery fan speed modification.

I use relay 2 and 6 to automatically switch my two Enginer kits.

Everything I am saying comes from Norm's website so do not take my word that I am correct. Double check everything with Norm's website and ask Norm as it was mostly designed to go with extra NiMH packs.

On one occasion I let my NiMH become overcharged to 86% and the Canview automatically switched off all relays which shutdown my converter. A good reason to use a Canview relay instead of a switch. It is inbuilt safety feature of the Canview.

One question remains - which side of the Prius current sensor to connect/engage the NiMH pack. I am leaning towards the the other side (not the battery side) so the original battery ECU will know how much current is going into the NiMH battery. This way the original battery ECU has a more accurate SoC if it can measure all the current that goes in and out.

 

My Australian Prius comes with factory fitted EV switch. Relay one is reserved for EV mode. I just placed the two relay terminals across my EV switch. The current used by EV switch Is small so only the Canview relay was used.

Relay 4 is dedicated to PHEV, which I would use to energise a 200 amp contactor to engage the lithium pack. Not sure wether you need to use an extra relay, I cannot remember what the Canview relay contacts are rated for. Some users use the Canview relay to charge dump the NiMH pack which is what we are doing. Best to ask Norm if using this relay 4 to engage lithium pack is OK. Normally extra NiMH packs are connected directly in parallel permanently and no contactors are used to engage each one. I would not connect a lithium pack permanently directly in parallel with a NiMH as the NiMH pack has a high self discharge rate which increases as SoC nears 80%. The lithium has a very small self discharge rate. The NiMH would bleed the lithium. A 230Vdc NiMH pack correlate with a NiMH SoC of 60% which is the lower target SoC used by the Prius under normal circumstances. The target drifts between 60 and 70 % SoC. I read in a forum that the Prius microcharges the Prius battery pack during normal operation to keep it between 60 and 70 % SoC. So having a lithium pack of 230Vdc is well chosen to avoid overcharging the HiMH. Even if the lithium enagage contactor should become welded close the NiMH is still protected from overcharge. It probably also avoids DTCs.

You really need to read Norm's website thoroughly.

I use relay 5 for my HV battery fan speed modification.

I use relay 2 and 6 to automatically switch my two Enginer kits.

Everything I am saying comes from Norm's website so do not take my word that I am correct. Double check everything with Norm's website and ask Norm as it was mostly designed to go with extra NiMH packs.

One question remains - which side of the Prius current sensor to connect/engage the NiMH pack. I am leaning towards the the other side (not the battery side) so the original battery ECU will know how much current is going into the NiMH battery. This way the original battery ECU has a more accurate SoC if it can measure all the current that goes in and out.

 

Yes, but not specially when EV-switch is off. Bms+ always calculate SoC.

Here is an example of Soc send by Bms+ to Hybrid Ecu during 20km. Lithium 40% discharged at the beginning and 80% at the end.

Soc is 64% or less when I press the Ev-switch. When not pressed it is 74% falling when battery are depleted. Because I don't use Canview, I am sure that bms+ knows ev-mode is on because this is a pid send on bus can.

Yes but it is first important during charging, voltage goes up to 245v. Nimh would'nt like during a so long time.

That's why 70 A123 cells is a good number. Nimh is over 240v just during few seconds when // packs. Voltage without any electric consumption is near 235v when lithium is fully charged and falls to 218-225v when depleted.

I connect Lithium via contactors directly to Nimh. Hall current don't see current between Nimh and Lithium.

 

Hi Planetaire,

Thanks for your input.

1.Where exactly did you connect the lithium battery pack positive and negative to the NiMH HV pack?

2. What size cable did you use?

3. Did you use metal screened cable? Which type of cable insulation?

4. What rating contactors did you use. I assume you used a contactor on each polarity.

5. Did you use 150amp Anderson plugs to connect and disconnect each of your 5 lihium battery banks.

6. Are you using a service fuse for your Lithium battery pack which you can remove to make it safer to work on and to remove your lithium packs.

7. What size fuse/s did you use. Did you use HRC fuses/s.

 

Exactly like for // Nimh with nimh.

One pole on one nimh contactor, battery side.
For the second pole you have to add a small wire (15-20cm) that goes in the hall current sensor in place of the original wire. Connect nimh and lithium at one end of this wire, the other end beeing on the second nimh contactor, battery side.

16mm² (5 awg)

No, but it would be better. Wire is called here HO7. Wire is in a orange "tubing".

100A continuous 2 contactors is better but not necessary.

I use 50A without overheating. 75A would be safer.

No I disconnect 5 sub-packs before working.

Yes a 100A fuse HRC.

 

Thanks for your concise and clear answers.

What size CSA (cross sectional area) or AWG is the small wire you used? 16mm2

The orange tubing identifies the cable as being 240v so the twchnician is aware of the high voltage danger involved. Not the safe 12 volts.

HO7 - rubber insulation good to maximum temperature of 90 degrees celsius.

 

Oh, "Clear answer" that's kind of you.

You could use 16mm² (5 awg) everywhere.
I use also 10mm² (8 awg) in my 5 sub-packs, but very short, say 10cm.

 

I guess your first language is French and English is your second language?

 

It looks that these pouch cells are original. A123 have a factory in Korea. A123 make the best.
I got an answer from someone who bought these cells on EBay.

hi john,
yes the cells are good, i have been messing with these from 5 different suppliers for 2 years now and they are ALL good -and i have not been able to say that about many batteries in the long term..
some say usa, some korea, there are 2 factories. these ones had cut off tabs and came out of korea as waste (sounds odd i know) but you can only get about 40a max from the lame wires and connectors, once i frigged around for ages to connect them properly they could output over 300a. they are all about 19.8ah and are perfect and new and genuine, i have never seen fakes of these cells, or anything other that perfectly performing cells -and all below 2miliohms internal resistance.
theres an easy option for $59 full tab cells with free post, email me for further info if you like.

I noticed you bought some AMP20M1HD-A cells. I just wanted to know how they have worked out for you. Do they really hold 20ah and meet the charge and discharge ratings. Do you think they are genuine A123 cells?
Thanks,
John

I placed an order for 70 of these cells to be delivered by DHL.

For 70 cells it will be :70*18.5+365usd(shipment)=1660usd in total.
The shipment is by DHL air.

70 x 496g = 34.7kg

I have asked the seller to make an EBay listing for 70 cells to do a PHEV conversion for a Toyota Prius as it has selling potential. His name is Xueming or 王 雪明

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/16-A123-20ah-Nanophosphate-AMP20M1HD-A-/250888450176#ht_8902wt_1026

The same item is listed on Aliexpress and Alibaba.

http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale/wholesale-amp20m1hd%252da-new.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/495469541/A123_20Ah_Systems_Prismatic_Pouch_Type.html

Send him a message on EBay and ask for a quote. His email address is [email protected]

 

Exactly. And the second far behind the first and learned a long time ago.

 

I need to make the following clarification on the above by Norm Dick.

By the way, I note a misunderstanding: in mixed mode my BMS+ does not limit current to between 30-40A (depending on accelerator position) It ENABLES the 30-40A assist that the HV ECU will allow given a high enough SOC. No conversion from anybody will use more than 40A average maximum in mixed mode. And it does not limit the current during EV mode to anything less than the Prius would allow (125A under ideal conditions) I noticed a reply on that thread which dismissed BMS+ as "40A in EV mode was too low for extended EV use."

 

I also considered getting Headway cells 38120S at US$24.99 x 70 = $2170 which is still very competitive at EVassemble.com (not including delivery). The cells come with metal links and snap together cell supports to build a pack.

16AH x 230V = 3680 kwh
70 x 500g = 35kg
Headway 40160S 16ah -screw tab [40160S 16Ah] - $24.99 : EV Assemble, All for Electric Vehicle!

 

Dimitri pointed me out to a 4kwh PHEV kit sold by Plugin supply. It uses headway cells with Dimitri's distributed BMS modules. It looks really neat. Apparently they offer a self install kit without batteries. Dimitri is a PIS dealer and installer. You can just order the parts you need for your kit. A bit too late for me.

If you are interested in getting a PIS kit without batteries you can contact Dimitri on [email protected]. Dimitri is also the supplier of miniBMS and other EV related products.

Plug-In Supply