Hate the Volt?

Those are US sales only right?

My understanding is Volt deliveries were made in Canada starting in September.

I know GM projects 10,000 US sales for 2011, I'm thinking more of the disparity between production and sales.

 

Technically speaking the current Prius is blended electric/gas, too, and for as many miles as you want.

 

The current Prius gets all of its energy from gasoline and converts some of it to electric. I've always thought Hybrid was a bogus term to apply to all the modern gas-cars-with-electric-motors-and-regen-capability but I seem to be in the minority. I guess my description is too awkward anyway. GCWEMARC doesn't really roll off the tongue like "HYBRID".

 

Tired of all the nonsense on the big GM forum, on the thread topic comparing the cost-to-drive of Volt to the plug-in Prius, I posted the following:


Lots of assumptions & oversimplifications lead people to believe any effort to explain is really an endorsement for the competition. That's sad. It's especially bad when those simply disregard price for the sake of bragging rights. And that's all too common.

Anywho, the engine in Prius uses the Atkinson-Miller pumping cycle and operates at high compression 13:1 with direct injection. So, it's not the common design most people are familiar with. The power-split device it's attached to allows the engine to spin at a slower rate than usual and provides the ability for rapid brief usage. In other words, the thought that there is mode-switching is a popular misconception.

The setup enables the system to take advantage of efficiency opportunities which only last a few seconds. It also accommodates electric-motor operation that often surprises those who thought they understood Prius well, but in reality had guessed incorrectly.

With the current electric-only threshold of 46 mph in the regular Prius, speeds above that cause the stationary engine to begin spinning. 992 RPM is a common sight, since little power is needed to just maintain cruising. When that happens, the efficiency stays above 100 MPG. With the upcoming plug-in Prius, that electric-only threshold increases to 62 mph and the efficiency rises to above 200 MPG.

So even though you won't experience pure EV driving at 70 mph, the additional of plug-supplied electricity and a high-capacity battery significantly boosts efficiency. Isn't that the point?



.

 

Yes, that is the point. However, when it comes right down to it, the Volt CAN BE more efficient for certain driving patterns.
With Daniel's once a year 600-800 mile trip and little driving outside of that, the Prius is the clear winner.
With our 30-35 mile commute and once/twice a year 300 mile trip the Volt is the clear winner.
Efficiency all depends upon how you drive. Just as we have been telling the people that come screaming in here when their new Prius is only getting them 38 mpg (even though they are driving it like a bat out of heck for 2-3 mile trips).

For us, we have used 1.6 gallons of gas in 443 miles of driving. We have also used approximately 120 kwH. Our gen 2 Prius would have used approximately 8 gallons of gas.

If you are saying 120kwH is less efficient than 6.4 (8-1.6) gallons of fuel, then I guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

Right - "It's not a (parallel) hybrid", then when they have to reveal what's inside admit it's little different than the Prius.

Dig the dirt on me and I've ripped GM for betting the farm on -15mpg vehicles, making the H2 their flagship car, and until 11:59pm pretend they were bulletproof and too big to fail.

The Volt may be overrated, but don't hate it.

I hope GM is starting to be serious on green cars and they build on the Volt.

 

I've gone back and forth on the Volt. When they first announced the concept, I'd have bought one. (And if they'd begun design work on it when they crushed the EV1, it could have been on dealer lots when I bought my Xebra, and I'd have bought the Volt instead, in spite of my hatred for GM.) Then I decided that encumbering an EV with an ICE made it the worst of both worlds.

I am seeing now that for some people, those who seldom or never drive farther than 35/40 miles, it can be a good solution. But it's still priced too high to be a mass-market car, and it remains to be seen, as John points out, whether it will ever be sold in sufficient numbers to make a real difference.

 

I think that leases count as cars sold, since the leasing company buys the car from the manufacturer, even if they are just separate departments of the same corporation.

Demo cars are usually kept for a while for prospective buyers to drive, and then sold at a slight discount. If you meant by the above that they cannot be driven, that's wrong. I drove a demo a while back. If by "moved" you mean "sold," I suspect it's up to the dealer, who needs to weigh the availability of more demos and the value of having a demo and the value lost when a car is used as a demo.

Semantics. The PiP blends source energy. The regular Prius has only one source energy but stores some energy that would be wasted in a conventional gas car, and then blends it in as needed.

Both the Volt and the PiP get some of their energy from gas and some from the grid, but they utilize the two sources differently. The Volt uses less gas for short trips, but more gas for long trips, compared to the PiP. Both use more gas overall than an EV, since even if it never drives over 35 miles, the Volt needs to run the ICE sometimes, and real-life reports show most people using a small but significant amount of gas. My Xebra never used a drop of gas.

 

Right. Even on a long road trip it can be a good solution. As I pointed out earlier on this thread, I drove my Volt on a 2.5 week trip for a total of 2,800 miles through the coastal NorthWestern areas of the U.S. and Canada this Summer. I got 42 MPG on gas-only driving. I was able to charge about 200 miles of that on battery when staying with family along the way. That brought the overall total to 45 MPG.

If I were to do this trip again in 2-3 years I would likely be able to find cost-competitive hotels along my route with 240V J1772 charging stations. They just weren't available this year and I didn't bother to hassle with trying to do 120v extension cord charging in the parking lot at the 4 hotels I stayed at. I will also be able to do convenience charging at restaurant stops in the future.

These additional charging opportunities could have easily added another 200 low-carbon EV miles which would have brought my total up to 48+ MPG.

Closer to home, I sometimes drive one-way about 40 miles to San Francisco. Currently there are not many charging stations available so I often drive back home on gasoline or stop for dinner along the way where there is free charging at a free parking garage. In 2-3 years I should be able to fully recharge more frequently at different destinations around SF. That will allow me to easily drive 100% on battery on a single day round-trip of around 80 miles. The rest of my driving is almost entirely under 40 miles closer to home.

 

You'll have to disagree with the Department of Energy as well.

DOE said, electricity generation efficiency is 32.8% and power transmission efficiency is 92.4%. The total upstream efficiency for electricity is 30.3%.

DOE also said petroleum refining and distribution efficiency is 83%.

You are misguided if you are just comparing the efficiency using the EPA figures. EPA MPG(e) do not include the upstream efficiency.

 

With PiP, it is not about 15 miles on electricity and the 49 MPG on gas. It is really about the synergy drive. A pair of porpulsion drive that works together to achieve something that cannot be done if working independantly.

 

No, I don't. I only need to disagree with your use of their data. As you are using their data about the national average and applying it to my specific case.

In our specific case, we added enough solar PV panels to generate as much electricity as our EVs would use.

If you were responding to a general issue rather than the specific efficiency our family gets, you might have a point (although I would still point out if you are going to include the upstream efficiency of electricity you should do so for gasoline as well).

 

For your specific case, have you considered the upstream energy/emission required to make those PV panels? I am asking because I don't know the ball park figure, not intending to raise FUD.

Unless you charge your Volt during the day and at home, 71% of the electrons that power your Volt would come from Coal in Minnesota. You'll be letting someone else use your solar electrons instead.

In general, if you take account of the upstream efficiency of both gas and electricity, the Prius (plug-in or no-plug) come out on top of the Volt. Those are not blank statements but based on a report released by DOE.

I am not an anti-EV but a realist. EVs do have advantage in states with clean electricity. I happen to live in one (NY) but the price of my electricity (36 cents per kWh or 21 cents without taxes and surcharges) is above the national average. It is pretty much the same in California where the electricity is clean(er).

If one use electricity wisely (in city, short and frequent trips), plugins can make sense. Foolishly using electricity to drive a SUV weight compact car at high speed (such as Volt) would result in con-gress (opposite of pro-gress).

 

I don't know if I would call it FUD, but your points are definately illogical/irrational as they apply one standard to the Volt and another to the Prius.

I actually have considered the upstream energy required to make those PV panels. Have you considered the upstream energy/emisions required to make the gas stations?
Lets also consider the energy that goes into making the transmision cables. While we're at it, the tanker trucks that haul the gasoline. Shall we keep going? I would be happy to as long as we consider the upsteam of both gas and electricity.
It is a very valid question, but only if you consider it for both vehicles.

Again, we added as many PV panels specifically to produce the amount of electricity the hybrid and ev would consume. We charge at night when electricity is cheap, but produce that during the day (most days) and pump that into the grid when the power is in demand. This benifits our utility (at least that is what they tell me).
We wouldn't have as many PV panels if we didn't plan on owning EVs.

Yet I always see you compare the well-wheel efficiency of the Volt or EVs to the tank to wheel efficiency of the Prius. You may be right in a general case. But your camparision of apples to oranges seems even more odd. Why don't you compare them by the same measure if the data is there (for the average case).

Your use of illogical fallicies indicates the former rather than the later.

You responded to my speaking of why the Volt was a better choice for our family over the Prius in our specific case. I appreciate your points about EVs in general, although I disagree with your illogical way of expressing them. Perhaps those points are better in a different thread?

As far as our specific case, using less gasoline while meeting our driving needs is important to us on a number of levels. We thought long and hard about it, and while the Volt has faults, no one has built a more efficient vehicle for our specific driving habits and needs.

 

Dude, this is the "Hate the Volt" thread, its pretty much designed for them to vent the FUD.

 

My bad, I guess I am the one that got off topic

 

Excellent point.

This is a legitimate and positive strategy as long as we are in an energy economy where most of our electricity is produced by plants running near enough capacity that peak-shaving is beneficial. (Which is the case now and probably will be for a very long time.) It makes the best use of installed PV capacity. Electricity is fungible. Any electricity you make in a sustainable manner is a positive contribution to the environment.

 

Perhaps, you lost track of our discussion. I did consider the upstream for both. See post#90 which I was replying to post#85.

My take of your post#85 (your reply to John) is that you did not consider the upstream efficiency. That is why you said "With our 30-35 mile commute and once/twice a year 300 mile trip the Volt is the clear winner.... If you are saying 120kwH is less efficient than 6.4 (8-1.6) gallons of fuel, then I guess we have to agree to disagree."

My reply requested that you to consider the upstream for both to make a point that Volt is not a clear winner. "DOE said, electricity generation efficiency is 32.8% and power transmission efficiency is 92.4%. The total upstream efficiency for electricity is 30.3%.

DOE also said petroleum refining and distribution efficiency is 83%."

Then you said, DOE numbers don't apply to you because you have solar panel. I pointed out that your nightly charged electrons are really coming from the grid (mostly coal), therefore DOE numbers do apply. It is nice of you to pump solar electrons for someone else to use it (paying higher premium). The fact remains that you are running on cheaper dirtier coal electrons.

You then said I didn't consider the upstream for gasoline and that I am an illogical Volt hater. That's where we are at.

Below is a graph from DOE report that compares well-to-wheel emission for many types of fuel using various type of plugins (including no-plug hybrid with 0 AER).

 

I think you're argument would be more persuassive if you mentioned something about the PiP being a midsized car ...

 

Somewhat, but I hate GM more. Newspaper gives Chevrolet happy 100th birthday, bragging about all their achievements in 50 and 60's and how they've bounced back with the Cruze and Volt... 'course along the way they invented the SUV, skirted around car fuel economy standards with it, likely pee'd all over wagons so people could burn more gas in SUVs.

It's gonna be pretty funny when the PiP is out in 6 months while the Volt slowly starts to fade away.

GM can't even build a decent coupe. Camaro is 6 cyl, with unusable back seat and tiny trunk. Plus it's 76" wide. How would I put that in the garage??? Don't see those lamo things with mail slot windows around much.

I respect Ford more than GM.