Plug-in Prius tax credit

I think Toyota intended to produce a Prius plug-in until the large format NiMh suit that also stopped the RAV4 EV.

Large format NiMh battery Patent rights end in 2014.
SUPERCARS.NET - Comprehensive Specifications, Galleries & Forums since 1996

 

No need, we've known that answer to the plug delay for a long time now.

Electricity has been dirty and used non-renewable sources. Shifting over to a plug-in prior to the switchover to better electricity wouldn't actually solve any problems. In fact, it could have made them even worse.

And why would any automaker sabotage the battery market by offering a plug-in before capacity, cost, and reliability reached a reasonably competitive level? It's only now that lithium chemistry has achieved that.

While Toyota waited, they refined their hybrid system to easily accommodate the upgrade and get consumers use to the idea in the meantime. So by the time production begins, many of the aspects of rollout would have already been heavily tested and responded to.

It's a good business approach for delivering a vehicle capable of high-volume profit sales shortly following rollout. Consumers won't be waiting for a next generation design like a certain other plug-in hybrid.
.

 

If you mean all energy sources, maybe not, but gas consumption, most likely. Those who've driven the PHEV versions have found little to no difference in fuel consumption in HEV mode. Whether the gains come from lithium battery characteristics or other improvements that are essentially brought forward from the Gen 4 is a different matter, but it doesn't seem that even if there were a hit there would be a significant enough hit on the average Prius driver to offset the grid charging.

In terms of the value of a tax credit, first remember that a tax credit is free. For USA LLC, moving money around the economy is OK. What matters are earnings (exports) and costs (imports,indirect costs due to health etc).

At current global oil prices (about $115/bl - global oil is currently much more expensive than Texas crude) assuming 44 gallons of gasoline per barrel (44 gallons of refined product per 42 gallon barrel) it would take 95,652 miles to recover $5,000 by displacing imported gasoline consumed at 50mpg. But, PEVs mainly replace short trip miles at lower efficiency so break-even could be shorter. Then they also help reduce global gasoline demand, encourage more investment in transportation efficiency by increasing competition, decrease urban pollution and have the potential to help renewable energy by raising night-time load and encouraging home PV by providing a higher cost-benefit for people with consumption-based tariffs.

 

I think I misinterpreted the rest of the post, not realizing that the "biggest" referred to the collapsed GM business. Some of us wrote off their insincere and ever-changing promises many years ago, waiting until they actually delivered something rather than award merit based on announcements.

Now GM is attempting to recover their business, but still disregarding actual need. Cruze obviously isn't a solution. Neither is eAssist. Volt is over-engineered, missing middle-market consumers entirely. What a mess.

As it stands now, they still don't have an answer to Prius either. There is nothing targeted for a mid-20's price offering a significant improvement to emissions & efficiency without being dependent upon a plug. In the meantime, Toyota's 2012 line-up will offer several choices... Prius, Prius-V, Prius-C, and Camry-Hybrid.

Sadly, the summary of the situation with Volt still stands. GM delivered a vehicle they wanted to build, not one they needed to. It sure is going to be one heck of a wake-up call for them when plug-in Prius sales begin.
.

 

I am fairly certain that you only get 19 gallons of refined gas out of each 44 gallon barrel of crude.

 

typo, I presume ?

 

About half petrol, half diesel in US refineries. Doesn't matter though; his point was that an imported gallon of petroleum based fuel is about $3.

 

Yes ... and no.

If I am not benefiting, I say NO
Second, efficiencies vary, taxation varies, un-recouped externality costs vary, downstream use varies.

Find a feudal economy and see what the peasants say to the lord to tries to convince them that "the money stays local, so be happy." Or an SUV driver paying $100 to fill-up who says "well, the money stays with Exxon, so it's actually free!"
Or best of all, try this line on some Hummer driving republican idiot: "Are you OK with 99% taxation of your income to benefit welfare deserving minorities ? Don't worry -- the money stays local!."

 

Absolutely. The government has no business subsidizing automobiles purchased by private parties.

Even with the $7,500 subsidy, how are Volt sales doing? Products have to be viable on their own merits, period.

Not sure how a tax credit is free, perhaps I'm missing something.

A lot of what you're saying may be true...or it may not. No one knows, as I said before.

Maybe these cars will provide significant efficiency gains; maybe not.

Maybe they will spur PV usage (a tangential benefit at present, given current efficiency of PV panels, the cost, availability of space in urban environments in which these cars might lower pollution, and the fact that only wealthier people can afford this sort of technology; those who least need a tax credit). Maybe not.

The bottom line is that mass transpo will always be more efficient and encourages development of multi-family dwellings, which uses significantly less energy than any single family dwelling in the suburbs, even with PV panels in the back yard.

I'm not saying the car is bad or good, but it's in no way a game changer and as such doesn't seem to warrant special treatment. And in any case, these cars still take up another space on our already overcrowded roads.

No, it didn't bother me, but it did smack of political flim flam. I also wonder how many of those folks who bought new cars—which perhaps they couldn't afford—have since defaulted on their car loans. I'm sorry, I don't have figures to back that up.

 

Of course this is a political choice made by Congress that came from both parties. There are many studies which have shown such policies do encourage the sales of the cars that qualify for the them. Not so much for the Volt as many of those sales didn't get those tax credits because of GM dealer tricks. It seems many Volts as sold as used cars and those don't qualify for the tax break or even a price break!

I guess that policy of a few years ago where one would received a minimum trade in for any car one brought in as that worked wonderfully to encourage
people tho purchase new cars must have really bothered you then!

 

Mass media hogwash.

While cases of dealers taking the credit by selling to each other occurred, I know of ZERO cases of people buying the car for MSRP and then finding out the credit had already been taken.

The Volt does not sell because it is expensive WITH the tax credit and because it is a GM POS. FUD is not needed to explain the market failure.

 

Right. If it's a product which meets the needs of a market segment at an appropriate price point, it'll sell.

If not, it won't.

The Volt doesn't.

That's why tax credits for the plug in Prius are a waste of time and money. They might help sell a very few initially. But the word will soon be out and the car will live or die on its own merits.

Take the $600,000,000 we wouldn't be shelling out for these cars and invest it in battery research, so we can finally remove the gas engine for good, drive viable electric cars and—one day—create a robust infrastructure to support them.

 

Don't worry, Obama is going to do BOTH. Tax Credits for EV's and PHEVs, AND invest heavily in battery technology development. We are rich, we can do it ALL , after all we are fighting multiple wars without paying for them (whats that you say, the U.S. is technically bankrupt, hogwash... so what that our currency is headed to worthless faster than we are running out of oil... "its not my problem" sais congress. The next American revolution isn't far off)

We are done, no matter how you look at it, might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

 

Pinto, you write $600 million as if it is a big number.

It covers 200,000 cars;
Each car has a lifetime of say 250,000 miles,
and the PiP will decrease petrol consumption by about 40% (conservative US UF calc);
and petrol consumption sends $3/gallon out of the country.

Do the math

An interesting side-point is that the Volt saves about 20% more petrol than I expect from the PiP (again, based on US EPA UF calcs). Close to 2.5 - 3x the tax credit, for 20% less petro-dollars loss out of the country.

 

Barrel is 42 gallons. After refining you get 44 gallons of product, including 19 gallons of gasoline.

But, there's 25 gallons of other stuff, including diesel. Saving 19 gallons of gasoline won't save overall import of a barrel's worth of petroleum products. Even if the other 25 gallons weren't used in the USA the refiners could export it.

I used 44 gallons of gasoline per barrel as a simplification to say "1 barrels worth of petroleum products".

 

Individual: Well, it's $6k* more than a Prius to start and there's no way I can save enough by using electricity instead of gasoline to make it worth it. Sure EV's fun but it's just too much.

Nation: Well, it's $6k* more in imports but it'll save more than that over its lifetime in imported petroleum. Definitely a winner. OK, how do we make people buy it? I know, let's take a few hundred dollars more off wealthy people and give the first 600,000 buyers $3k each so it's worth it to them to get the PHV. Hopefully battery prices will keep falling and we won't have to give them any money in the future.

* Pure guess

 

In 2005 there was a hybrid car tax deductiion. It was replaced in 2006 by a hybrid car tax credit. I don't recall any complaining about the Prius qualifying for these. I do remember the complaining by the buyers that could not take the credit. So why the animosity against the plug in credit?

I don't recall reports of anyone being forced to take the tax credits. There are many laws that reduce taxes for those who fall within certain circumstances. It seems "we" want to rail against one that throws a little bit of money toward the middle class but all the other ones are OK.

"Everyone is equal. Some are more equal than others."

(In comparable driving Prius plug in conversations get ~125mpg.)

 

You may not know anything but I know of two. One was local and another was a friend in CA. One was able to take the dealer to court and won but the other didn't receive the tax break.

 

That is of course just your opinion rather than any real facts. My opinion is different in that I know the tax credit will actually help me buy the plug in and I know two other people who are the same.

Also battery research has been one of those fields that spending hundreds of millions of dollars hasn't really advanced the field very far. In fact much more than has been spent and we still don't have EV
cars that can go much further than 5 years ago.

 

Politically this is a nonstarter and shows bias against a single car company or worse. Besides the US Government took four times that amount and shelled out for a "hydrogen future" and fuel cell research or as TonyPShaefer would say "fairy dust and crocodile tears". Any extra money would be swallowed up just like that. That money got side tracked to lots and lots of politically targeted "research groups and (my favorite) consortiums" and nothing ever came of it. Nothing ever will come from it. This $600,000,000 (and more if they buy other products) is going to Americans who will make that decision of what is more viable. There's nobody twisting their arms to buy a Prius Plug-In. They can buy a Leaf or a Volt or a Tesla S and get double and more to the tune of $1,500,000,000 tax credits for each manufacturer.

The problem is, and we all know it on PriusChat, that the Prius Plug-In will be a compelling purchase based on reliability, cost and efficiency, but the tax credit may help us decide between a standard Prius or the Prius Plug-In. And we all know the Prius Plug-In would save more than the $3000 in fuel costs for the life of the car ownership. But only to 16,000 of us next year. At the same time the Rav4 EV will also compete and those buyers will probably get the full $7500 tax credit. Production of both of these vehicles will count as part of the 200,000 total manufacturer cap as well as any other future EV or Plug-Ins produced by Toyota (such as the Scion iQ EV), so not all 200,000 Prius Plug-ins will get that tax credit. So no, $600,000,000 will not be going to just Prius Plug-In purchases.