Anyone here have their kids forego vaccines?

Sorry...but the US Constitution (as amended) has a little blurb about "branding or maiming", which used to be quite the popular forms of punishment back in the day. Worse even than school paddling.
The Eight Amendment:
"[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excessive_bail"]Excessive bail[/ame] shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment"]cruel and unusual punishments[/ame] inflicted."

Of course, the aforementioned US Constitution (as amended) is a pretty malleable piece of work, which is why the Second Amendment isn't taken nearly as seriously as the other amendments (excepting for the 10th), but I'm thinking that the "NV" tattoo wouldn't pass the old sniff test, if you know what I mean.

I'm thinking that if the government can force people to buy health insurance, they can make people take vaccinations.
Personally? I've had all my shots...so it's not really the top turd in my pile of crap right now.....

 

I thought I was being humourous, not serious.

 

The general assumption of pro-vaccine folks is that the vaccines are entirely safe and provide protection against the intended diseases.

My personal experience is that several vaccines have been anything but safe for me. I've had two influenza shots, and was laid low for several weeks after each shot. When I actually do get the flu, it's no where near as bad as when I got those shots. Another time I got a smallpox vaccination. My doctors had delayed my getting it until I was about 13 because of all my allergy problems. By the time I got home from the vaccination, my arm was turning red and swelling up. My mother called the doctor, and they decided that I didn't need to go to the hospital yet, but to keep watching it. I think I missed several weeks of school while my body poorly coped with this "harmless" vaccine.

Another doctor I know told me that he had two patients turn into vegetables after receiving vaccinations for one of the flu scares about 10 years ago. He still offers similar vaccinations, but tells people about this experience and doesn't push them if they decide to forgo the current one.

What I really don't understand is the fear that people who have been vaccinated have against people who are unvaccinated. If the vaccine works, then you're protected.

The effectiveness of flu vaccines is really doubtful. There have been two years where the seasonal flu vaccine was known to be ineffective against the strains that actually occurred. I saw a graph of flu incidence over a number of years, and there was no way you could even identify which years the vaccine was ineffective. Either the chart was irrelevant, or the vaccine was irrelevant, or both. The mere fact that the vaccine was ineffective those two years didn't stop the vaccination campaign from going full force.

I could go on about the problems of vaccines, but I'll stop for now with these few examples. Vaccines are not as safe or as effective as the promoters would have you believe. There are a number of people who react poorly to them. I'm one of them.

 

Me too.

 

It's too bad that one family of viruses; "flu" can range from conventional to deadly. If a flu equivalent to what came around in 1918 occurs, I'll risk the vaccine shot and recommend that to almost everyone. That particular flu tended to kill off young adults, more so than the elderly, exactly the group that is most likely to think they don't need it.

 

You brought up some good points, but I don't think that it's fair to compare the influenza vaccine with the ones that are prescribed for polio, MMR, smallpox, and other serious communicable diseases.
I've seen problems with vaccinations in the military, and I will stipulate that there are people out there that should not be taking them that can be identified by health care professionals and exempted from a vaccination program.
I've seen some pretty bad car crashes too, and there are people who can make an informed decision not to drive if doing so doesn't pass their risk to benefit calcuguessing.
However (comma!) in the absence of underlying medical conditions, or sincere and strongly held religious beliefs, I have to go with the majority on this one.
Additionally....parents who eschew vaccinations for their dear little crumb snatchers are in many cases guilty of child endangerment in my never to be humbled opinion.
Kids cannot make informed decisions, and may not be able or willing to determine on their own that their parents are morons, albeit sometimes well meaning ones.

JMHO...

EDIT: You're wrong about two other things. Vaccinations are presumed to be neither 100-percent safe nor 100-percent effective. At best, they offer a level of protection against a specific bug, with an acceptable (by some) risk of side effects.
If you review your history, I think you should find that the benefit far outweighs the risk where epidemics and pandemics are concerned....and we'll leave the ethics be for now.

 

That's not how vaccines work. Vaccines do not provide 100% protection for an individual, but instead reduce the chances of contracting a disease, and generally reduce the virulence if contracted. When a sufficient percentage of the population is vaccinated it imparts what is called "herd immunity". This is not immunity for the individual, but immunity for the herd. Herd immunity keeps an outbreak from reaching critical levels where it becomes an epidemic. Some individuals still get sick, but fail to spread the illness due to herd immunity. If done properly, the disease will eventually die out or be reduced to very low levels.

Tom

 

Correct. When the Vaccine for Rubella was developed the US vaccinated everyone. Since the worst effect happen to the unborn children of pregnant women with Rubella, the UK only vaccinated females.

With herd immunity, Rubella is wiped out in both North and South America, but still 'common' in the UK as over half the population was never vaccinated. The 'Herd' was not immune.

Rubella - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rubella vaccines lowered the number of children born deaf in the US by 30%

(Can you tell I am a member of Lions Club International? We have a focus on blind and deaf advocacy)

 

For those interested in the anti-vaccine point of view with regard to Hep B, I recommend looking at Hepatitis B Vaccines: Adverse Reactions. Thinktwice!

While I'm not familiar with much of the data there, I do know about and respect Dr. Russell Blaylock who wrote the foreward in the "Vaccine Safety Manual".

A few quotes from it:

 

RobH -> Straw man argument - your allergies have NOTHING to do with how safe a vaccine is, or not.

Some people die from a single bee sting; that doesn't make bees dangerous.

I myself have many allergic reactions, that my children have inherited. I STILL had them vaccinated, because to not have them vaccinated when they go to school where the "white anglo saxon" is a minority.

Since you have posted here, you haven't died - meaning the vaccines worked.

I'm sorry to pound on you, Rob, but unintelligent & uninformed drivel needs to be pointed out. Not laughed at or ridiculed; but shown for what it is.

What if you became US President in the future and decide to ban vaccines, and when microbiologists (who are doctors...) try to explain it to you, you go LALALALA while blocking your ears, basing your decision only your own personal experience, an allergic reaction?

I wasn't "out" for two weeks, more like a few days, arm swells up, slight fever.

I can safely go out in the world, knowing I won't get Hepatitis, Malaria, Small pox, etc.

Now imagine you plan a trip to Ecuador, you bring your 18 yr old son that was never vaccinated, he catches a variant, slightly mutated version of a nasty virus vaccination would have prevented, and he becomes a Trojan back to the US.

I remember being angered over the Taliban preventing the North of Pakistan & Afghanistan people being vaccinated for free by the WHO, that were damn close to eliminating some viruses from the PLANET making them extinct.

Now cases have popped up all over the world, including the US. I forget which virus in particular; many know the story.

Anyhow, Rob, your post should be a wake up call for many things; like climate change theory. Just because you don't understand the math & science of something, doesn't mean you should distrust the system.

Peer review means more than one, *published* scientist, has reviewed the facts and vets the theory. Some have on both sides of "climategate" have been peer reviewed, meaning that there are multiple, supported theories. Science works that way.

For vaccines, there are *no* two sides. Not a single anti-vaccine "paper" showing proof of anything has *ever* been peer reviewed. 50 + years.

The idiot "doctor" linking to autism - when someone tried to peer review the findings, found nothing but altered or incoherent data. IE, he lied, for money. The press took the story and ran with it, because he contacted the press.

That idiot "doctor" is no longer a doctor. Wow, big slap on his now very rich wrists. He's directly responsible for *horrible* child deaths, like in Alaska.

-> Thinking Hats ON please <-

 

Rob, since vaccines are known to be dangerous for a minute portion of the population, the law has a provision for it, based on Jurisprudence from the BC times.

The sacrifice of one, for the good of the many, must be compensated by the many.

For vaccines, the death of one among millions - which is rare, vaccine places have you wait 10+ minutes before you leave, and have antihistamine shots & adrenaline shots on standby.

Remember the bees... What prevents a person dying from a bee sting? Think it through.

As for "flu" shots being less than useless, there is truth there. There are too many variants of the flu virus to effectively be vaccinated against all of them. So only the worst ones are selected and integrated in the "soup mix".

Which is why only "at risk" people are suggested to getting the flu shot every year. The rest of us, in relative good health, won't die from the worst flu viruses. So stop crowding the emergency wards of hospitals.

Rob, did you ever look *behind* thinktwice.com? Why they exist, who finances them? What peer review they have? What's their agenda?

Opinion does not equal Theory, and peer reviewed Theory is greater than Theory.

I see a red light, while outside on a sidewalk, and I cough. Why did I cough? Must be because of the red light? Because I was on a sidewalk?
So I should never look at red lights and walk on the street only to prevent coughing?

Hey, I can link to websites too!

More good and bad news about measles and vaccinations | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine

First, the good: vaccination rate for measles in the UK has risen to its highest level in 13 years according to the UK Health Protection Agency. The rate — 90% among two-year-olds — is pretty good. I’ll note that this is for the first of two vaccinations needed; for the second dose the uptake is lower, 85%. One bit of bad news about this is the reason behind the rate increase is thought to be due to a series of measles outbreaks in Europe. It’s an irony of life that vaccines are a victim of their own success: inoculations have been so successful in eliminating some diseases that people take for granted the diseases are gone. But they’re not gone, they’re waiting. When vaccination rates drop low enough, we see more measles. And pertussis. And the flu, and polio.
And when this happens, people get sick, and some die. A teenager in the UK recently died of measles. He had a compromised immune system, which means he relied on us, the rest of the population, to keep up herd immunity.
We failed him.
​

 

moderator; to save time, could you copy and paste my response to the "Why drive EV?" and "The hidden cost of burning oil" threads since the argument and my response to the argument are the same.

vaccines are proven to GREATLY increase the odds (nothing is 100%) of a better life for one. there will always be exceptions and you are highly unlikely to be one. what we seem to fail to understand is YOUR personal decision could affect dozens if not hundreds due to their exposure to said disease based on your short-sighted, self-centered decision based on non-existent fears garnered from what is primarily a standard legal disclosure that applies to nearly all medications.

statements like "i will drive my SUV because i can afford the price of gas no matter how expensive it gets" is a personal choice made that has global ramifications. oh wait!! got carried away there. leave the sentence structure but change the key words to match the thread.

now, there are a lot of individual decisions that should be preserved because they really dont affect anyone else. but just as we dont allow you to smoke in a public building, drive a car that has not been certified or randomly discharge a firearm within the city limits (notice the law does not distinguish whether you hit anyone or not) this is another choice that is becoming apparently another decision that must be made for you.


now, not all vaccines fall into this category. there are still a few optional ones that are currently in the "good idea" category and those are mostly flu shots, etc. i personally dont get flu shots but the rest of my family does.

one day, i will change my thinking on that. i am supposedly in the high risk category but have not gotten the flu in over 5 years despite living with people who have. but basic childhood immunizations needs to be standardized and required. i am not going to play Russian Roulette with my child

 

Tech term: Debunking, taking time to educate about erroneous conclusions with peer reviewed facts, so that the truth be known.

James Randi & Phil Plait are personal heroes of mine.

Quote from Dr. Russell Blaylock :

Parents should beaware that the Hepatitis B vaccine is not administered for the well-being of their child. Rather, it is delivered by the long arm of some incompetent and mindless bureaucracy in the name of stamping out a disease most babies can't possibly get.​

I agree with Dr. Blaylock; bureaucracy has paved the way to more vaccines being done, at a younger age, just because a few babies died getting the virus from their mother at birth.

As a parent, I would not have liked the doctor at the hospital vaccinating my children w/o me being informed first. Not when I know that a simple blood test can eliminate 99.9% of the probability of a serious allergic reaction to *most* vaccines based on egg yolk.

Unfortunately, ignorant people like Jenny McCarthy have extended this to autism, and scaring moms into having their kids not receive any vaccines AT ALL, exposing them to small pox, measles, etc.

So if 10 children in 10 years died in the US because of a vaccine, it should be banned. No, it should be studied, risks evaluated. If the risk outweighs the benefits, then postpone a vaccine. Allergic reactions can be tested for with a blood sample.

Great debunking done by Phil Plait on his blog in his anti-science section. Thanks to him I better understand Intelligent Design "theory" as just an extension of the creationists; ID is still faith based; as such ID is not theory - there are no measurable "facts" or "proofs".

Antiscience | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine
​

Some specific posts :

Antivaxxers must be stopped! NOW. | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine

More good and bad news about measles and vaccinations | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine

​

Oh, if you're so worried about the evil mercury in vaccines, be worried of nearly all nuts. Not human nuts, fruit nuts. Be way more worried over tuna.

 

Naw, the moderator knows that when these pages become Google Cached and Viral (pun intended), PC is going to get a nice jump in web hits, especially unique IP's.

Fingers crossed, I want PC to be in good health! (pun intended)

xkcd: No Pun Intended

 

Vaccinations have ZERO link to autism, says new decade-long study



The problems we have in the anti-vaxxer movement are similar to the the ones we have in the climate change movement—people treating anecdotal evidence with higher validity than broader data. It’s understandable. Wrapping one’s mind around something you cannot see—millions of data points and cases—is much harder than listening to a handful of emotionally charged stories from parents dealing with life changing news.

 

oh good, maybe burritos will get vaxed now