The Volt's superior battery range will save more money!

This thread started as a very clever "tongue in cheek" analysis of the Volt. It grew into a more serious comparison of the Volt and the Prius PHV. I maintain, from personal experience, that the reasons for the strength of the Prius PHV go further than efficiency of design.

I have purchased and sold two EVs. I have experienced the depreciation effect of the prospect of needing to replace a battery pack. It is a different world from selling a used ICE vehicle. The deafening silence from manufacturers regarding the cost of replacement battery packs for any of the current crop of EVs and PHEVs is not helpful. It is my experience that when information about products is not encouraging, it remains "secret". Bits of information crop up from time to time but it is often hard to follow them to their source or to verify them. With sadness, I have come to the conclusion that EVs and the longer range PHEVs are too much of a risk because of the potential cost of battery replacement. With just one battery replacement, even with the federal tax rebate, I estimate that the Leaf and the Volt will cost in the range of $50,000. These are not economical cars.

I bet that the Prius PHV will be a winner because it is a known quantity, because it is a more useful car, because it will keep a high resale value, because it is a more economical car overall, and because it is an adequate car in every respect.

But most of all, the Prius PHV will carry considerably less risk of expensive battery replacement costs with a battery less than a third the size of the Volt (16 Kw vs. 5.2 Kw). The lower electric only range will still be there for the very short trips where it is most useful.

 

I agree and I think if replacement were to be necessary in the future, a large battery and labor may still cost more than the book value of the used vehicle.

On a very cold morning, I would like to fire the ICE for more efficient heat because it was reported by GreenCarReports that it takes more energy to heat the cabin than to propel the vehicle at 50mph.

I drive 12.2 miles to and from work, and the PHV may be rated higher than 50mpg after a depleted battery in HV mode due to EV regen .

 

They aren't the short-lived lithium cobalt oxide batteries used in lithium ion batteries in electronics. It's a different chemistry with different properties.

 

...is foreseeable future only to 2013? I was thinking one thread said 2014 all Toyota's will be plug-ins, or will non-plug-ins be offered also after 2014?

 

Volt's battery pack isn't designed to be serviced by DIY owners. The pack is hard to get to. I believe the 400 lbs T shape pack has to be accessed from the bottom or have to drop it down. It is also liquid cooled so you need to worry about the coolant mess. Anyone with Volt repair manual could put some light for the procedure?

 

Well, the story was in the Nikkei business daily that it would be available as an option.

 

I read that denial story too. I recall it said something about it would not be practical to go to all plug in. It is my understanding that they are testing the market for the plug in and may expand plug in offerings but not go over to them completely any time soon.

 

I think it would be excellent if the Prius offers the 5.2Kwh and also an 8 or 10 kwh battery option in the next edition of the Prius. Imagine having a choice of a 15 or a 25 mile EV backed up by a 50-55mpg HV after depletion. That would spare people from buying too much battery.

 

POTUS, I enjoyed your original post immensely. And to all the spreadsheet experts, my first Prius was an '04, purchased in Oct. '03. I drove it just over 70K in two and one half years, and kept track of EVERY expense involved, right up to the day I sold it back to the original selling dealer for cash. Result, just over 21 cents per mile. My '06 came from a different dealer, and I am again tracking all expenses.

 

...hope we at least get another cup holder with the extra space if we go with the smaller battery

 

Well, the reason is that in so many reviews, the complaint is always about only 13 miles. I myself would like at least 55mpg for the HV mode after depletion. Give me 15 mile EV and 55mpg HV and I will be very happy.

Is it a good idea to offer 2 battery size options?

 

I would be very surprised if Toyota did offer two options.

All the indications I read are that Toyota is stepping out of its comfort zone to do this plug in with Lithium Ion batteries. The lure is that it can get more battery power into less space and even at that they are using just about all of the available space (except perhaps for the space between the two front seats).

Toyota very much wants batteries to last "the life of the car". High mileage, low years will not be a problem. People like me who are low mileage and tend to keep a car past ten years may be a challenge. But if anyone can do it, Toyota can.

 

If I understood the earlier posts, sounded like in 2014 we may have a choice between non-plug-in with NiMH or plug-in with Li Ion. I was assuming same model design. Maybe I would stick with NiMH non-plug if there is space/cost advantage. Its dreaming, like Allennde, I will try to keep my 2006 model to 2016 minimum.

 

I was referring to the Tesla-like options of offering different battery capacity on the same vehicle. Model S will come with a 160 mile, a 230 mile and 300 mile EV.

Thought the next Prius may offer options like these in addition to the regular hybrid NiMh.

 

The gen III phev has no room for multiple battery choices. When there is a gen IV, it is definitely possible to design the car for multiple choices. Given Toyota's history though I would not bet on that being an option, but superior range may be being designed in right now. IMHO it is likely that Gen IV is being designed with Lion for both standard and phv.

The space is not accessible so it could not be used for storage. The saved weight would also not improve MPG significantly. A pack with less energy would be a less expensive replacement though, but it would have to have similar power.

That's much easier in the prius. They did pull out my back seat of my previous car on a border crossing to check for things.

Kind of wild with the thoughts here aren't you? Battery technology is improving, and the biggest problem is simply the age of the packs, not their use.

 

I am actually planning on keeping my original battery once its useful auto life is over (if I buy at the end of the lease). I read there are companies working on using them for home power back-ups, there should be plenty of capacity for that for a long time.