Chevy Cruze to have diesel version and get 50 mpg.

I didn't miss it. I just feel that since most of the members on this forum are from the U.S. that [pointing out how U.S. diesels just do not compare. A great many people view this forum that are not part of the debate and may have missed your Eurocentric point.

 

The US is blessed with low prices for the Prius, and the fuel economy testing standard that doesn't favor diesels as much as the Euro cycle does. When the competitors start bringing over the truly efficient diesels, I think Prius stands in a much better position than in Europe.

But as it is right now, Toyota is falling behind in Europe. Sure you can point at city mileage and particles, but the bottom line is that hybrids don't sell very well and Toyota knows it.
I hope the Auris gets a major overhaul when it gets updated, that the Yaris hybrid gets market leading fuel economy and Toyota decides to introduce the Prius C as well.

 

The Prius sells very well over here. At least in my area. I see 10+ Prius for every one VW of any model. I hear you about the prices though. Over here the Prius is comparable to the Jetta in price unless you go nuts with option packages. In places like Canada and Australia the Prius is pretty expensive.

 

I don't think anyone should be surprised that Europeans are more likely to buy their home market cars, just as much as Japanese or South Koreans. And it is not that Europe does not want to send those zippy 1.2L, 1.4L diesel Econoboxwagons to America.

So, far the compact Jetta diesel gets 34 combined while the midsize Hyundai Elantra gets 33 combined mileage on regular gas.

 

The Elantra is a good deal lighter and real world results on fuelly show a much larger gap. Plus the Passat also gets better mpg than the Jetta and it's much bigger and heavier too.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the newer Jetta TDi's don't have the urea tanks any more. Before I purchased my 2010 Prius, I looked at a 2010 Jetta TDi. I was amazed when I was told by a VW Mechanic that VW was able to do away with the urea tank starting with the 2010 models.

 

The Jetta and Golf have never used urea. I would prefer them to use it, would undoubtedly improve fuel economy.

 

The 2012 Jetta & Passat diesels have the same combined mileage of 34.
Passat Diesel 30 City/34 Combined/40 Hwy
Jetta Diesel 30 City/34 Combined/42 Hwy
Elantra Reg 29 City/33 Combined/40 Hwy

CITGO - 13755 E Colonial Dr - Orlando - East, FL - Orlando Gas Prices

Using fueleconomy.gov numbers and yesterday local gas prices! Cost of driving 25 miles!
Passat diesel - $2.93 * Jetta diesel - $2.93 * Elantra Regular Gas - $2.77

 

Passat TDI MT gets 1 more mpg than the highest rated Jetta. If you don't like the Jetta's fuel costs then don't buy one. It's not for everybody. Neither is the Cruze diesel. But for some people, I'm sure it's a great choice. Cause we can come up with contrived comparisons all day long, it doesn't really prove anything...

Jetta 37.8mpg
Elantra 30.7mpg

Pilot Flying J - #788 Headingley, MB

Using fuelly.com user reported mileage and yesterday local gas prices! Cost of driving 25 miles!
Jetta diesel - $2.70 * Elantra Regular Gas - $3.63

 

I did a quick check on the Diesel cars you compared to Auris HSD and they are not much cheaper - if comparable equipped. Auris HSD has the cleanest emission and lowest highway (extra-urban) fuel consumption. Some under-powered and slightly smaller Diesel may match or a little exceed on the highway.

However, in term of efficiency Auris HSD appears to be the class leader with highest power and lowest energy consumption - just see CO2 gram/km. Remember, Diesel has more energy so it should get higher MPG. Atkinson cycle gas engine more efficient than the best Diesel on the highway? No way, GTFO. That's the amazing part you should be grinding.

Let's not go into the city / urban because we all know there is no competition for Auris HSD. So I disagree with your statement in bold. Auris HSD is very competitive on the highway/extra-urban and class leader in the city/urban.

You mentioned Fiat Punto Evo 1.3 MJT. The Diesel engine clatters and the exhaust spew out smoke idling. It is a cheaply made car. I'll take Auris HSD over it any day.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQrbG-GTM_Y"]‪Fiat Punto Evo 1.3 Multijet‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

well GM talks about Chevy Cruze in US market, right?

With respect to cars you list there are a couple points:
- none of them will pass US Tier 2 Bin 5. If they will their MPG will be considerably worse.
- there is very few cars with manual sold in US. Something like 3% if you take sport cars out
- EPA ratings far more accurate representation of real life then Euro standard

 

I've never seen any diesel which -didn't- spew out a load of black crap when you drive hard/start it/change gears. They still pass the MOT because the test is a "smoke" test. if it's not killing the test operator, it must be fine.

It's a stupid dead technology in the passenger space. If it was any good we wouldn't have this discussion, because better efficiency (no throttling loss) and higher fuel desnity (over 10% more energy) would make the diesels 20% better than the prius in all conditions. it doesn't.

 

I agree Mr Flan.

But we always get these same diesel comments. Diesel is great at a steady speed such as cruising a highway or pulling a train down the tracks. It is not so good in start, stop traffic in a city or busy road conditions as anyone unfortunate enough to be sat behind a fully loaded double decker setting off from a bus stop will testify.

Why am I now a hybrid and Prius fan? (and I wasn't at one time - before I looked at the facts!) It's because I now save £thousands a year by running one compared to a diesel. Now I'm sure many diesel fans will object to this - many of my colleagues do too, but that quirky looking car from Japan does actually work. Just because they can't get their head round how it works, or how a 1.8 litre petrol automatic can manage 75 UK mpg on a steady run at 50 mph doesn't mean it's not true.

I've given up showing fellow taxi drivers my mpg stats showing I get around 50 UK mpg consistantly over 10k mile service intervals when they're getting 32 UK mpg because they just don't believe it. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true. Now I just grin that smug Pruis grin whenever they complain about how much their fuel costs are.

 

That black crap called soot or aerosols contribute to localized temperature warming because the particles absorb incoming solar radiation. So they are not only a health problem, they are a climate problem.

 

Older diesel engines in cars used to spew soot and particulates. My first car was a 1983 Volkswagen Vanagon Diesel. I would have to clean the back of my van at least once a week because of all the soot and particulates. The newer and cleaner diesels you don't get that. I have literally stood behind a 2010 Jetta TDi and didn't smell a thing. The only think I could see coming out of the exhaust pipe was some water vapour.

 

Check the tailpipe. Wipe your finger on the inside of the pipe and I bet you find soot. It occurs in nearly all vehicles.

You are right though. The newer ones do not contribute as much soot but they still do. Only the particles are smaller now so they are less noticeable. It's the big vehicles that are really a problem. This includes the ignorant %^&*s who disable their emissions equipment and add devices that allows them to bellow huge clouds of smoke whenever they feel like it. I'd love to see people like this get their a##'s smoked by someone carrying a firearm when they pull such stunts.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqcmN8d-yHo]‪Funny diesel smoke out #1‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

Sadly here in North East Tennessee, there are plenty of rednecks (mostly teenage boys) that drive their big Dodge Diesel Trucks, Ford Diesel Trucks and Chevy Diesel Trucks that have done just that. I guess since I drive a Prius they feel the need to bellow huge amounts of exhaust in front of me at traffic lights. But the laugh is on them though. When they are spending $150 or more to fill their trucks on a weekly basis and I am spending $40 on a monthly basis. I will be laughing all the way to the bank. LOL :rockon:

 

Does anyone have ANY actual data that shows that the current crop of diesel vehicles (cars or trucks) still emit significant quantities of soot, or any other PM for that matter.

I am aware of at least 30 studies that have demonstrated that diesel engines equipped with DPF (which ALL on-road diesel vehicles are now OEM equipped and have been since 2007 in the US) either have no particle number (PN) emissions above background, or actually are cleaner from a PN perspective than HEPA-filtered dilution tunnel background air. So in some cases, they're actually serving as air filters!

 

No it's not. Gasoline cars took a hit to fuel economy and power once they were required to start controlling emissions. Diesels are still in the early stages here, but it should advance quickly with the ground having been done for the gassers.

DPFs are a new area that gasoline cars don't have to deal with yet. To clean them out, diesels currently dump unburnt fuel down the exhaust during a regeneration cycle. This is likely a big hit on their fuel economy, and it is required more during city driving. Ford, and surely others, are working on filters that require less to no regenning.

Hybrids are great, but the aren't for everyone, and we shouldn't limit ourselves to specific technologies when correcting problems.

 

Or even what gasoline vehicles emit in comparison. The closest study I came across back when I took a look was gas vs. CNG. CNG owned the room in that one.