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2005 brake failure

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by rfelley, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. rfelley

    rfelley Junior Member

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    2005 brake failure:

    I would appreciate responses be limited to technical only. I am trying to solve this problem and do not require any emotional support in the way of opinions or other. I'm submitting this new thread because I haven't found anything quite like it after researching the site.

    History - Purchased "Certified" used with 60,000 miles from Toyota dealer. Now at 110,000+. Dealer performed recall work on inverter coolant pump and reprogrammed computer during same visit about a year ago. Brakes appear to be original at approx. 50% worn.

    My failure was preceded for a week or two by subtle changes in the feel of the brakes, most notably what I would describe as inappropriate "twitching" of the vehicle as I was creeping in either direction - in other words - a constant pressure on the brake pedal did not result in a smooth motion of the car (under 7 MPH).

    Today 4 warning lights went on related to this problem and this is the first time that has happened. From left to right - (1) "Brake" light (same one that comes on when parking brake is set, (2) yellow brake warning light symbol with exclamation point in middle, (3) ABS warning, (4) VSC light. No audible warnings. I have an appointment with a local small service shop to have them scan to determine what codes have been set.

    The only thing I have done to the brakes up to now is adjusting the rear brakes because they were grabby but that was months ago.

    Now that the failure lights have lit, the vehicle is very hard to brake smoothly. At first it takes extra pressure to initiate good braking and then with a little more pressure the effectiveness feels more normal and it jerks between the two modes worse at lower speeds.

    I'm wondering if air could have entered the system through a leaky master cylinder rear seal or anywhere else. I haven't found any leakage anywhere including in the interior firewall area. Reservoir is solidly between the low and high marks and I've never added any brake fluid.

    This is a good site, I look forward to hearing from the knowledgeable ones!
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    It is a good idea for you to have the skid control ECU DTC read. In the event that your local shop cannot retrieve the DTC you may have to visit your local Toyota dealer, or search for how to retrieve two-digit blink codes by placing a jumper across the OBD-II socket.

    Without knowing the DTC, my guess is that the brake pressure accumulator pump or the skid control ECU is the problem.
     
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  3. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Can you tell if you are getting any regen? Can you also tell if the brake accumulator pump is working (the ratchety-sounding one)? What you describe is fail safe mode hydraulic braking only.

    Please give more details of the rear brake adjustment. Did you bleed them?

    But the codes will tell the story, most likely a problem with the brake actuator.
     
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  4. vertex

    vertex Active Member

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    The symptoms you report are similar to ones that I had where moisture gets into a connector, and confuses the computer. After drying out and resetting the computer, it went away. If you had a lot of rain before this happened, it may be the problem. If you don't have a method to read the codes, and reset them, you can reset them by removing the negative battery terminal for a minute and replacing it. If the codes stay clear it is probably the moisture issue.
     
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  5. rfelley

    rfelley Junior Member

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    I am getting regen on coasting but not on brake application. The accumulator is loud and clear but it operates now when I open the driver's door and power is off, I don't recall that happening before??? Rear brake adjustment was just the adjuster, never opened a bleeder on this vehicle anywhere. Brake effectiveness is OK on hard demand (as in can rely on brakes being there) but loafing around as in city driving the response feels like they are not coming on until suddenly they do which causes very uncomfortable passenger conditions, as in very jerky stopping below 20 - 15MPH. When I get codes I will report them. Thank you very much!
     
  6. rfelley

    rfelley Junior Member

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    Tried the battery disconnect/reset. No change. Don't suspect moisture due to garaged daily but I wouldn't rule out connection or bad wire as I am amazed how thin the wires are in these vehicles and can probably wear through very easily. Thank you!
     
  7. stevemcelroy

    stevemcelroy Active Member

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    Sounds similar to an issue that I had when I had a bad abs sensor.
     
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  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Skid control and SRS ECU DTC will not be cleared by removing 12V battery power. This requires correct use of a jumper on the OBD-II connector or use of an OBD-II code reader that can clear the DTC.
     
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  9. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Here's a hug:

    :hug:

    Tom
     
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  10. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    That's a possible sign of Accumulator Low Pressure, which means replace brake actuator. If that is the case, then you may need some emotional support. Let us know what the local shop says. I'm all for using independent shops over the dealer, but they will need a two-way scan tool to read Toyota proprietary ABS codes and to perform any sort of repair that involves bleeding and zero point resets.
     
  11. vertex

    vertex Active Member

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    Patrick:
    Thanks for the clarification, I forgot about those 2 not being reset. ABS is though correct?
     
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  12. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    ABS functionality is provided by the skid control ECU, so any DTC relating to ABS will not be cleared merely by removing 12V power.
     
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  13. rfelley

    rfelley Junior Member

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    Problem resolved, (thanks for the hug Tom even though I said I wasn't asking for any emotional support).

    According to the dealer, Lum's Auto in Warrenton, Oregon, the stored code was C1247, reporting a bad stroke sensor on the brake pedal. Cost to replace, $185.72 for the sensor, $190.00 for labor which included 2 visits, one to diagnose, one to perform the repair.

    So, in conclusion, I went in assuming I was going to have to trade the car in due to high cost for repairs, but was pleasantly surprised. On the first visit they cleared codes after diagnosis and
    I was able to drive the car for a few days with no symptoms until the part arrived for replacement.
     
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  14. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Phew! Glad to hear it was a few hundred rather than a few thousand $ repair.
     
  15. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Senior Member

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    The last sentence I find confusing. Automatic parts replacement due to codes? I thought a code was an alert to inpect the part as well as the circuitry connecting the part. A bad connection will throw the same code as a failed part I believe. Not saying is the case here.
     
  16. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The alternative is for the dealer to charge the OP for the inspection time and do nothing. Then if/(when) the OP's car has a repeat occurrence, the OP will be irritated at the dealer.

    Given the sequence of events described by the OP, the dealer service mgr can reasonably say that appropriate action had been taken by the repair tech. Especially since the system in question is safety-related, it is reasonable to be aggressive in replacing parts.

    If the problem recurs, the next step will be to replace the skid control ECU which will be more expensive than three-digits.