Volt is "obsolete" Compared to Prius Say CNN

Some are from outside the launch states as well.

 

I organized the comments I made on Autoblog Green. Sorry about the length.

Hybrid Synergy Drive Designed with Plugin In Mind

Gen3 Prius was designed with plugin in mind. Exhaust Heat Recovery system and electric water pump are great indicators of it. They are great for plugin that rarely runs the gas engine.

Prius PHV has enough EV power to drive around town. It even has reasonable EV power to merge to the highway. Keep in mind that the cordless' EV mode is powered by 36hp NiMH but the traction motor is rated at 80hp.

Prius has 60kW (80hp) electric motor. Leaf has 80kW (107hp) motor. I think a lot of people has the perception that Prius has a weak electric drive. It is simply based on the 27kW (36hp) NiMH battery designed for hybrid application. PHV pack should utilize the entire 80hp so if you are judging from the cordless Prius, you'll be in for a surprise.

People don't realize that Prius is a series-parallel hybrid. The series part of it generates electricity and then fed into the traction motor.

Why does it do that? The answer is to multiply torque. Prius has an electric transmission. It does not shift gear or change gear ratio to multiply torque. It shifts the mechanical energy into electricity to multiply torque. It is a totally new concept that only a full hybrid can utilize. Prius doesn't have a reverse gear. It simply spin the traction motor backward.

The Right Tool for the Job

Short trips are the MPG killers. Using electricity from the plug to cover those frequent short trips further raise gas MPG and you make a good use of electricity.

Electric propulsion is superior in city driving but gasoline is superior for long distance constant speed highway driving. Using the wrong tool for the job can be expensive and counter productive. That's what we are seeing with the Volt.

Gas and electricity works together as a team in Prius PHV. There is no anxiety. Anxiety is created when you separate the two. The root cause of Range Anxiety and Gas Anxiety is really the separation anxiety.

Volt separates gas and electric as if they are black and white. Prius PHV blends the two powertrains and use them like colors with many shades, tapping into synergy of the two and prevent wasteful parts (get more with less).

Prius PHV can do highway speed full electric. The question is how fast and how hard do you want to accelerate on battery. The real question is why do you want to do highway speed on battery. Volt's owner manual warns about noticeable range reduction above 50 mph.

Why drive full power with half the hybrid powertrain and shorten the battery life? Especially if you can use the full hybrid powertrain and offload the battery by using the gas engine as well? GM already admitted that the battery needs improvement to achieve 10 years / 150k miles warrant to qualify for AT-PZEV. Prius PHV would use the right tool (or even a blend of both) for the highway speed as the design is flexible.

The synergy between gas and electric is the beauty of being a hybrid. If you need both, use them. Driving around with half the hybrid powertrain is not green, wasteful and counterproductive.


Range and Charging Time

Greater EV range comes with longer charge time or requiring additional fast charger. If you charge often, you won't need a big battery. A regular plug can provide about 7 miles for 1.5 hours charge. Each leg of the trips would fall under that range.

The ideology that an overnight charge cover the entire day trips, ignores the fact that there are other plugs (public) that you can charge during the day.


Engine and Fuel Maintenance

Volt can't do full electric in cold weather neither. It can't do full electric every 6 weeks as well due to engine maintenance (to lube the gas engine) and every year for fuel maintenance to clean out the stale gas.

Prius PHV performs those maintenance when it makes sense to do so -- when you actually need to use it like full acceleration above 80hp.


Weight





Which car do you think weights the most? Volt weights about 364-400 lbs more than Honda CRV or Mazada 5.

 

We already knew that each expressing interest would not result directly in a sale. Much of that was easy to confirm too, simply because the counts came about prior to the reveal of the price and the estimated MPG values. The real-world data disappointment (winter efficiency) following rollout obviously didn't help either.

GM would deliver Volt for demo models and to dealers requesting some for selling. There wasn't any priority order program as Toyota had done in the past and is planning to again.

That lack of effort to match wanting consumers to available inventory has helped to confirm things aren't a rosy as they've been portrayed.
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I think GM should aggressively put some Volts on the road thru leasing before the Prius PHV shows up because just like the Prius v, I suspect the PHV will get favorable press.

And if after EV depletion the official EPA combined rating of the PHV is about 55mpg or more in HV mode with EV regen help, that would be the real "game changer" or "game over".

 

I dont think Volt is obsolete NOW, but I think that come 2 years max, when we will have MANY PHEVs on the road (just 2 EVs and at leaste one PHEV from Toyota alone in 2012, probably shipping in good numbers in 2013), together with possible Korean and other Japanese EVs/PHEVs as well as ones by Ford, I think Volt will end up being looked at as late 90's tech with its mid 30's EPA MPG numbers.

And thats after billion spent into development and only 2 years into lifecycle that should be 5-6 years minimum.

 

We've been saying this for a while. The Volt is really too expensive to ever make sense and when the PHV comes out it won't even make sense to people obsessed for some reason with plugging in their car; it will likely be much cheaper and simply a superior vehicle.

At some point even fanboys of the volt will have to admit its sales numbers are pathetic. Now in for June, still haven't even matched the 600 from March.

 

Which is a BAD THING. Higher daytime demand means more generating and transmission capacity required or more generating plants running at maximum output while capacity goes unused at night.

If you're happy to plug in during the day you could try this instead:

EZIP 1000 Electric Scooters | Ezip Electric Scooters

It costs $599 and has a 36V 10Ah pack giving a range of up to 12 miles.

 

Also, I am really anticipating the final EPA rating in combined HV mode of the Prius plug-in due to additional EV regen. With a combined of 55mpg or more after EV depletion, I would buy a PHV even if I don't have access to a plug at home.

Very soon these chargers will pop up in parking malls next to handicapped parkings. The tax credit would also bring the PHV closer to the cordless Prius in price. The Volt at 37mpg combined on the other hand, is only efficient EV mode.

 

Daytime electricity is cleaner than night time. As plugins move forward, so shall the infrustructure. Majority of the charge may be done at night and some charging can be done during the day.

I am not following you about the suggestion on the electric scooter. From my point of view, if I need to compromise, it is not progress.

 

How many Prius Gen 1 sold in the USA in the first months of sale?

 

I'm not sure that would be a valid comparsion due to heightened awareness of hybrids and EVs as well as the known reliability record. Back in 1999-2000 hybrids were a new and scary technology which would have hampered sales. Now that there is a proven reliable track record for these new technologies, people may not be as afraid to take the leap. The Volt's price is what is keeping people from buying them. At $37k-$40k, they just make zero sense compared to other offerings. As we know, most people purchase for economical reasons and not just environmental reasons. The Volt only works when you can keep the engine off. Otherwise it burns more fuel and is dirtier (emissions) than the Prius and many other cars.

 

According to GM the Volt is new technology and they are for that reason in the same situation as Toyota was with the Gen 1 Prius. Remember this is the first mass produced plug in hybrid on the US market.

 

I diagree, Pat. The Volt is indeed new technology but it is close enough to existing technology that fear is reduced. It is not the giant leap of faith that Gen1 Prius and EV1 owners took back then. Alternative technology vehicles are mainstream now so while some may see the Volt as revolutionary and scary, I think most people look at it as just another alt-tech vehicle.

As for the plug-in thing, most people think the Prius is a plug-in so I don't think that even registers as scary anymore.

 

Really zero mpg ?

Lazy article.

 

Yes, it's the money. But I wouldn't say that it doesn't make sense. I'd say that it's simply too expensive.

The Prius has a low enough price that many people who, economically speaking, shouldn't touch it with a barge pole can afford it, perceive they can afford it and buy it.

 

Hmmm ... why do people talk about the current sales of Volt ? Let them finish the pent up demand in a few months and have Volts on the lot. That is when we will know the real demand for Volts (and Leafs too).

 

When Prius came out, there weren't many choices out there (just the Honda Insight and it was a 2 seater). Now, the market is totally different. There are cordless hybrids and many plugin choices coming out next year.

For the Prius, Gen2 made improvements in size, power, emission, handling and efficiency. Cost reduction started in Gen3 while further improving on size, power, handling and efficiency.

For the Gen2 Volt, its #1 priority should be cost reduction. That would surely be a constraint to make improvements to the other area.

Prius started with an affordable price ($19,995) while Volt started at twice that price. So, there are a lot more work ahead.

 

Is gas $1.10 like it was back then?

Whatever GM wants to call it, lack of demand, or lack of production capacity, the Volt isn't selling well. Leaf is now outselling it last month 3:1, leaving it in the dust and pure EV with its shortcomings is a greater leap than hybrid. At this time the Volt is not selling for one obvious reason: GM isn't making them.

Until GM starts making these in meaningful numbers it will be impossible to say what the real demand is. Nobody actually knows. I think if they were making 4,000/month the "above msrp" prices would very quickly evaporate and I don't believe demand is going to be high enough at its current price to sell a substantial number of volts.

The car has been out for more than half a year now and we're at incredibly high gas prices. I agree it's impossible to know real demand but either GM doesn't want to or isn't able to sell these in substantial numbers.

 

That isn't actually the problem.

It's similar to what we saw in the past, GM competing with itself.

Cruze is absolutely overwhelming Volt sales. At half the price and slightly better engine efficiency, most middle-market consumers simply dismiss the plug-in as an expensive niche without even giving it a second thought.
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I can't believe that I have read all the way throught this thread and no one has pointed out the 800 pound elephant in the room. GM can not make a profit on this vehicle as it is priced and any drop in price to compete with the Prius plug in hybrid would further damage its profitablilty or lack of it. GM's manufacturing assets cannot be wasted on a vehicle that is not profitable. GM's stockholders, executives and board of directors cannot allow a vehicle in their product offering to be sold at a loss. Nothing else about the Volt matters. You can argue the beneftis of the Volt till you are blue in the face but if it is not a profitable vehicle, its demise is inevitable.