Volt owners averaged 1000 miles between fill-ups in March

Hmmm I understand your point. In that case it makes sense. Thanks for bringing up that point. I guess iv you live in areas like navada where electric is less expensive then it may be a practical choice.

 

Good thing for GM, Ford, Hyundai, etc. that there is enough fringe buyers in the market to keep them afloat.

It is a fallacy to assume your personal experience and expectations are the main stream. I'm guilty of it too. I assume everybody knows how to swim.

EV range is the biggest priority. If it doesn't get people to work and back home everyday, people aren't going to buy it, regardless of price, size, or how many are made.

 

I disagree because I look at it differently.

Almost anybody can benefit from the first 14 EV miles. If it runs out, use the cleanest gas engine available that delivers 50 MPG with a regular gas.

 

Sounds like the "gas free" marketing.

The purpose of the plug is to offer a significant MPG boost at an affordable price.

Mainstream consumers have clearly stated their purchase priorities over the years. To dismiss that, claiming it's all about EV range now, is disingenous.
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Saving is, by definition, spending less.

What you're trying to say is that you're willing to pay a premium for benefits you perceive to be of value, a trait we both share. Both cars get you from point A to B just fine. Anything else is extra window dressing.

You seem pretty interested in the PHV Prius even though you know it won't save you a single dollar over a base Prius over any reasonable lifetime unless they price it really, really cheaply. In fact, 2 seconds on the PHV page nets this quote from daniel, who seems pretty well respected:

 

John, you posted in this very thread,:

Which is it? Any improvement of "MPG" is because energy was supplied from a wall socket. Somehow this doesn't count against a PHV Prius?

 

Going from midsize to compact will cost you less. Is there any saving if you have to give up the size and other features like automatic? The end result is compromising to spend less. The point of Prius is to have the cake and eat it too. It is a midsize with the cost to operate like a compact size. A twin size mattress fit in my Prius. I don't think you can do that with Cruze or Volt.

Prius PHV can displace the gasoline usage for short trips (MPG killer). If it boosts the lifetime MPG from 50 to 75 MPG, I'll be saving 1,000 gallons of gasoline. I think I will get much higher than 75 MPG. Even at $4-5 per gallon, I am looking at $4,000 to $5,000 in gas saving. That could pretty much pay for the plugin premium. Throw in $2,917 tax credit and it can pay for the cost of electricity.

I won't need to compromise one rear seat or downgrade to a compact size. I will have the lowest emission (eAT-PZEV) car that runs on regular gasoline. It will also get 50 MPG for the long trips. Top speed at 112mph instead of 100 mph (not that I need it, just saying). A proven reliability track record with 10 years / 150k miles battery warranty.

I see it is as a win-win-win situation. It will be a win for me, a win for the environment and a win for Toyota to keep on improving the technology.

 

So no one should try to invent any new forms of propulsion because no one ever bought the stuff that didn't exist before proving they don't want it? Sounds a bit circular to me.

 

A few pages back in this thread, you asked:

And here you are doing the exact same thing.

If I buy a PHV Prius and drive pure EV to work, hybrid home for a total of 25 miles, can I post about my 100MPG average? Yes or no?

 

Why can't you? Why can't you say I got 100mpg and 3.88 mpkwh?

 

No, Prius PHV will report EV/HV ratio. Hopefully, they also add the kWh usage in the final production model.

Look, Volt and Prius PHV will use two types of fuel. Reporting mileage divided by a single fuel is misleading and incorrect. We'll need to acknowledge both fuel and Prius PHV reporting EV/HV ratio does exactly that.

 

assuming it also tracks how much gas it burns in EV mode somewhere...

I really think they need to come up with less confusing units even if it takes longer to educate people about them, "joules per mile"?

 

That's so vague, I wouldn't even know how to answer.

The need has been to deliver a product for the mainstream.

Volt clearly is not that. It is a configuration enthusiasts will really like, but middle-market is left without a choice. Had GM offered multiple configurations at the same time or focus on Cruze/Malibu buyers instead, all would be fine. Instead, we got a niche and years to wait still.
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Mainstream consumers don't even drive a hybrid.

The reason for my replying to your post was that your definition of mainstream consumers seemed to really only be Toyota consumers. That you have conflated your, and a like minded group's, priorities into everyone's.

I, of course, didn't know when to shut up, and made a comment while thinking about pure EVs. Personally, the PHV Prius doesn't do anything at that range. If it is so much better and less expensive, then skip the entire plug-in or plugless nonsense. Make it standard. Even without ever plugging it in, the upgraded battery, presumably the costlier component, will improve the consumers fuel efficiency.
And I likely said too much again.

 

Why is the balance of priorities such a difficult concept to convey?

That "which" implies a mutually exclusive choice... quite different from a hybrid like PHV offering the best of both worlds. The plug was mentioned.

It's all about how the system most efficiently uses the energy available. Electricity in means MPG improvement out.
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Regularily being in the top-10 seller list here and the #1 seller in Japan doesn't qualify as mainstream!

That's some mighty deep denial.
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Once the gas engine kick in, it is no longer in EV mode. It will be in HV mode.

 

I really don't think that is true, think of the inverse, when you pull away from a stop in HV mode you won't be burning gas at first (normal HV operation) will that be tracked as EV miles?

I posit that the system will behave differently at 70 mph in EV mode and 70 mph in HV mode. For one we know they'll be drawing from different batteries. I suspect the EV mode gas burning will be set a different ratios than the HV operation gas burning.

Part of the problem is defining the modes. For instance in CS mode I can build up a good charge on regen and drive for a couple miles on electric again, but it won't switch back to CD mode, it runs in electric in CS mode.

I think the mode is more of setting the algorithm that determines how much assist the car will provide and from what source, and like I said I suspect it will vary and not be 100% defined by the fuel source.

 

So I can post my "145MPG" lifetime average?

EDIT: Electric is much more efficient than any ICE available. At least twice as much. Why do you think the heat sucks so bad? The 34kWh in a gallon of gasoline will take a determined Prius driver perhaps 60 miles (ignoring the crazy outliers on this site). The average Prius driver might go 50. I have documented the ability for a Volt to go 120 miles on that same amount of energy despite dragging around all that extra hardware. Others have done better. Yesterday, I went 45.6 miles including a 15 mile, 70mph highway cruise.

I have taken great pains to monitor my total energy usage as the only fair way to do it (especially given that I last bought gas 1600+ miles ago). You guy don't get a pass to throw out "75MPG" or whatever just because the PHV has a small battery.

 

I expect that, along with the odometer reading, total gallons, and total kWh. You can even include gallons/100miles.
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Like that comment? It was posted yesterday by a Volt owner with a website promoting Volt. Notice how mention of electricity is absent? That's quite common already. They're setting the precedent. Better make sure they hear your concerns too.

I do appreciate that inclusion of duration. Low mileage driving is a key factor to the purchase decision also not mentioned.
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