I really don't get it???

"Reports of" 45 mpg avg? I wouldn't pay much attention to anecdotes. People around here bust the EPA ratings all the time, but comparisons need to be apples-to-apples, so stick with EPA. Even when VW had the car rated by AMCI, it got 38/44.

 

You wouldn't, unless you enjoy flushing money in the toilet. Hopefully it won't command a $10k out-of-pocket premium, and it probably won't.

Well, in reality it's going to get a great deal less than that around city. Some people here get 55+ mpg regularly but you shouldn't use their numbers, either. That VW is rated for 30 mpg city/42 hwy and runs on more expensive diesel fuel. Prius is rated 51 city/48 highway on 87 gas and is undoubtedly more reliable than the VW.

 

Another way to look at it that I think a lot of other people miss is this:

Think of it as 13mi of assistance vice the 1/4mi or so you get now with a standard Prius. I only have a 9mi commute but there are a lot of hills here so I know that I will not be able to make it on EV alone. However, if the rest of the time not climbing hills can be done on EV then those times of 20mpg are severely offset by the times of unlimited.

Right now on my commute I average about 45mpg or so. I would imagine I could get 60mpg or in that ballpark if I could use EV more efficiently and often.

This would also mean that a 13mi charge would last me all day meaning my "MPG boost" would be available for just about all of my driving needs.

 

so, for those of us who missed it, how much money will you save with a plug in vs regular prius based on you 45 -60mpg increase?

 

Beats me but I don't see it that way.

That is like asking me what the gas price will be in Spring of 2012.

 

exactly. so it's not about paying for itself, it's about increased mpg's, getting off of oil and onto renewables and reducing pollution?

 

If I may, I strongly suggest you test drive a Chevy Volt. It is the most fun car I have ever driven, and I got 1001 miles on my last 7 gallon tank of gas. Its a similar concept to the Plug in Prius, but has triple the EV range and lower mileage once out of that range (also qualifies for more federal tax incentive because of the larger battery pack).

It may come close to a Prius on economy, but it doesn't drive anything like a Prius. It is truly amazing.

 

I agree: the plug-in MSRP has NOT been announced but as much as I hate the reality of what will happen in the next 12 months I do believe it is more likely than not that the plug-in MSRP will be an additional $10,000 compared to the non plug-in.

But as most of you pointed out, let's see. However don't see a solid math to compare the economic cost of plug-in vs non plug-in,

Here is what I can offer:

In PG&E territory 1 kW of power costs $0.12. From what I read the plug-in takes about three hours to fully charge almost depleteated battery using roughly 1kWh (not knowing the AC power factor of the charging inverter one can't really figure out the drain but I suspect it's about 5Amps). But back to the money: so it will take $0.36 to get a full charge or put another way: 13 miles for $0.36

Best case scenario is one's commute is under 13 miles and one has charging outlet at one's office garage. So round trip is .36x2=.72 per day x5 days a week = $3.6 times 4 weeks per month = $14.4 monthly fuel expense.

So for the 520 miles a month commute @ 4/gallon I would pay $46.22 with a non plug-in compared to a plug-in $14.4. Difference of $31/month. Hmmm I wish the difference would be more significant.

May be the difference becomes more significant when one drives around all over, finds charging stations and puts more juice into the car throughout the day and manages to NOT go into combustion power while putting over 1,000 miles on the car each month?

 

To the OP: If economical transportation is your primary concern, the PiP (plug-in-Prius) makes no sense. But that's partly because NO new car makes sense. People who need economical transportation buy used cars. A $500 junker, if you have the skills to keep it running yourself, or otherwise a 5-year-old Honda Civic, will be more economical than any new car, be it a regular Prius or a PiP or whatever.

I bought my 2004 Prius because I was ready to trade in my 1989 Civic for something with air bags and ABS brakes; I like new cars because they are less trouble (though more expensive); and I liked the cool technology, very low pollution, and best-in-class FE. Only the two-seat Insight had better FE. But a 1999 Civic would have been cheaper over the life of the car.

I bought my 2006 Zap Xebra because I wanted an EV. There was NO economic justification, since I still needed to keep the Prius for longer trips. But I wanted to drive electric.

Why would anyone buy a Jaguar? It's expensive and unreliable. Well, people buy it because for them it's fun.

The whole point of the PiP is that it allows SOME electric driving while still allowing long trips at an efficiency about the same as a regular Prius (which is far better than the mpg of a Volt in cs mode -- after the battery is depleted). The PiP is a compromise: More economical than owning two cars, a gas car and a pure EV, while still giving a little of the EV experience. People will buy it not to save money, but because driving electric is fun. And some will buy it to reduce their pollution, because it's the short trips where the regular Prius does the worst, and the PiP can do those without running the gas engine.

If the fun of a few miles of EV driving does not interest you, and you are not hyper-concerned about pollution (since the regular Prius is already the lowest polluter of any gas car) then the PiP probably is not the car for you. A regular Prius is an excellent car, costs less than a PiP, and you won't have to wait several years for it.

BTW, I don't think Toyota is taking orders yet. It's taking names for a list which will at some point be given first shot at ordering.

 

Daniel is back!!!!! Woo hoo! :rockon:

 

To me the concept of buying a car to "break even" or "make money off it" is insane. The savings are in the piece of mind and knowing when you press the button or turn the key that it will start.

As pointed out above, if you want to gamble with "making money on a car" find a $500 beater and make it last 100k, otherwise enjoy the stress free reliability of new.

 

With my short commute and other short trips, together with longer trips a few times per month, I estimate 90% of my cold starts with the '10 Prius would be avoided with the PHV.

I think the incremental cost to 'yota of the bigger pack is in the 2000 range, but msrp will reflect a markup and the federal tax credit, so I'm thinking 5-6M gross or 3M net of credit and negotiating (once the initial rush passes). Just hope it will be available without the Four/Five level option packages. I registered for it, but doubt I will go across country to get one in '12.

 

Ideally, the price of gas will sag, the brakes will scare people, and I can snare one on the cheap.

 

agreed.

 

And in California the Plug IN Prius will get a NEW GREEN carPool sticker in 2012.....

 

VW's can be great cars to drive but terrible cars to own. VW's lowly quality rating is well earned as is it reputation of making fun to drive cars with great interiors. This is a car I'd strongly recommend leasing if you have your heart set on it - if you get a stinker you can walk away before it is out of warranty and if you like it you can just buy out the lease.

Also keep in mind the newest generation of Jetta is a very different beast than the old ones. VW wanted to hit a low price point and the new version has been cheapened in a lot of areas to hit the pricing.

 

Point #1:
Do you donate money to a cause that you believe in? Or maybe church? When do you plan on that paying you back? Not burning gasoline helps everybody. It is a worthy cause if there ever was one.

Point#2:
This only makes it obvious again that gas is too cheap. You aren't paying the full price of gasoline at the pump. If you were, then the small extra charge for more battery would make more ROI sense. We socialize much of the cost of gasoline, and it would obviously make more sense to people if we paid it all at the pump.

 

Ideal owners:
Ford Fusion Hybrid Want a large sedan that gets great gas mileage and just works.

Toyota Prius Long daily commute, need the absolute best mileage.

VW TDI All highway miles, company maintains car.

Nisan Leaf, 30 mile or less commute, never needs to drive farther in their Leaf. (Double that if you can recharge at work)

Chevy Volt 20 mile or less commute, rarely needs to drive farther, but needs to just have one car. (Double that if you can recharge at work)

Prius PHV short daily commute, but needs to road trip frequently.

 

The wagon is still part of the old generation.

 

Yep. A conventional car or non-plugin hybrid can never run off hydroelectric power, for instance. From EPA - Clean Energy - EE Action Plan, 48.4% of the electricity in my area comes from hydro.

It's partly about consuming less oil, a non-renewable resource much of which resides in unstable regions of the world (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2178rank.html), of which we (the US) currently consume almost 19 million barrels/day and currently import 51% of it (Oil: Crude and Petroleum Products - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy). The US consumes 22% of the world's daily oil production while it has less than 5% of the world's population. We're competing against countries like China and India that have >1 billion people each and a rising middle class that means more there will be able to afford cars.

Yep, the current gen VW Jetta sedan (only?) is a big step backwards in apparent interior materials quality. Even w/the previous gen, it seemed like VW knew how to make things that looked and felt good but had durability problems (e.g. peeling interiors, interior bits that would break, etc.)

You might find Fuel Sipper Smackdown 2 — Edmunds.com helpful. Too bad the formatting is all messed up after Edmunds redesigned their site.

BTW, if reducing CO2 emissions and a lower EPA air pollution score (nothing to do w/CO2 emissions) is important to you, per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI automatic for a given driving profile will emit 6.4 tons of CO2/year vs. 3.8 tons for a 2011 (non-PHV) Prius. For whatever reason, the air pollution scores for the 2011 Prius are missing but should be the same as the 2010: 8 or 9.5/10 vs. 5 or 6 for the Jetta Sportwagen TDI.

Question for you... since you seem to be asking about why someone would pay extra for PHEV Prius... don't take this the wrong way, but why would someone buy a Mercedes S500 over an E class or C class? How about over a Kia Rio or Hyundai Elantra?

What's the "payback" on any Mercedes over the other cars? How much fuel do you save w/an S500 vs. the other cars? Clearly, there are certain features, attributes, qualities, etc. that make one car "worth" something over a another, at least for certain sets of people.

Yep, for starters, just think of the wars we've gone in regions that happen to possess most of the world's oil reserves...