Are coal-powered electric cars really better for the environment?

Octane, you are denser than I gave you credit for -- and that is saying a lot.
You apparently believe (obviously thinking is not going on here) that because fossil fuels are a reasonable reserve or contingency they should be the only daily energy source.

Listen, coal bricks-for-brains, solar is a wonderful resource in half of the US for PV, and 90%+ for solar heating. A third of the US has tremendous wind energy. The NW has hydro. It only makes sense to use these resources efficiently. Location matters, and straw man arguments like a cloud over alaska just make you look really, really, really, dumb.

 

I have not read it completely yet but I think the range shows the electricity carbon footprint differences state by state. I believe the bars used the average to compare.

One thing to note is the report was published in 2008. They used the Iconic Prius (46 MPG). The results would be different if they used 50 MPG Gen3 Prius.

 

Assuming the charts in the link are accurate, take a look at the debt/GDP ratios of Reagan and both Bushes compared to your's truly, Clinton...

National debt by U.S. presidential terms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dubya was a real hum dinger to our economy, but yes, the current debt is skyrocketing too, 14 trillion IIRC.

 

There's an Energy Information conference next week, OP. Why not go there and get all your questions answered?

http://www.eia.gov/

 

Well, his comments are all over the map, so he's bound to hit the target at some point. I'm actually having a hard time trying to figure out just what his main points are. Can somebody provide some bullet items?

I can do a few:

• Our grid uses a lot of coal, so EVs pollute
• The sun doesn't shine at night
• Gasoline doesn't have significant upstream issues
• Solar is too expensive to be practical
• Or maybe it is "Enviros" who are keeping us from renewables
• Solar needs too much roof space
• WAGS and spotty math are a good way to make points
• Or at least a good springboard to challenge others to a math smack-down.

 

See, the thing is... you don't HAVE to make electricity out of coal. To make gasoline, we pretty much DO have to use electricity... and oil. And then burn it. Nothing needs to be burned to make electricity. Going forward, oil will be more and more polluting to recover, and electricity will get ever cleaner as we green the grid. Plus you can make your own electricity however you like (surprise, your Prius makes electricity with gasoline!) Look at the future, not just a snapshot of today's reality.

Also read my bit about having adding enough renewables to the world grid just in the last year to power 50 million EVs.... and the amount of renewables being added is increasing exponentially as we head forward.

 

• Sarah says "Coal and Oil is mmm mmm good, and Clean Energy is Baaaad."
• The Koch brothers care about *him*, and they love oil
• Oil is "adiabatic."
• If he kisses the Koch brothers' behinds, he gains his freedom and liberty.

 

Who did your learn that from? ERCOT, the texas grid, is 8% Wind, 13% nuclear, 38% gas, 39% coal with the rest biomas, biogas, hydro, and solar. These are figures from 2010, peak wind and gas capacity is much higher. Wind is expected to experience the greatest growth in the next decade. The power generators are concerned that their will not be enough demand for the planned wind power at night and are encouraging EV use. Most of Texas is deregulated and users can choose renewable energy in both the regulated and deregulated portions of the state. Texas is a net importer of coal and exporter of natural gas.

Refining oil is a major use of electricity and source of pollution in Texas. As oil has become more difficult to refine the amount of electricity used has been steadily increasing. I would rather have the new wind turbines powering cars than trying to create syn gas.

 

Take the time to read it and its supporting information here to get the whole picture.

True they used the Iconic Prius data, however conventional cars were improved as well, so relatively the results may still be valid.

Giora.

 

Figure 1 in the article is the 3 scenarios they have studied, condensed into one bar chart. The "lines of uncertainty" show to what extent the bars in the chart will "stretch" or "contract" in the high carbon and low carbon scenarios respectively.
One who knows the carbon intensity of the grid in his area can interpolate and find the lifetime cycle of GHG emissions of his car and of the alternatives.
The absolute numbers, as you mentioned, are true for 2008.
Note also that they were a bit optimistic with the electricity consumption of the PHEVs assuming 0.2 kwh/km (plant-to-wheel).

Giora.

 

just what i wanted to say.
take the co2 because of oil collecting, producing etc and you have a lot more c02 before you even get it into your car.

 

Does the sun shine brighter when EVs are plugged in ?

 

Cute but no, it shines only for "partial EVs"

 

Darn.

Well then, does it rain more ? Or hopefully the wind blows stronger ?
Because if none of these are true, I am having trouble understanding how the ratio of fossil:renewable stays constant when extra demand is placed on the grid by EVs.

 

Sorry, I thought you are joking (like my joke on the Prius being AT-PZEV in another thread).
Now I understand you are serious in your questions.
Sorry again, it seems you faied to understand the article, or did not read it at all?

Giora.

 

Somewhere Bill Nye was claiming it would be more ecologically sound if every car on the road was powered by coal-sourced electricity than petroleum. I need to find that link to see what exactly his rationale was.

With a stationary combustion source, you can tightly control emissions. Much harder to do with millions of cars.

 

Actually, I am trying to subtly (or not so subtle) make a point, that any study that tries to reach conclusions of GHG intensity from EVs based on pre EV grid intensity averages is not worth reading.

 

The article I cited deals with GHG emissions only.
No doubt EV cars are great in eliminating tailpipe pollutions as well as fossil liquid fuels displacement.

 

Just be sure to avoid looking at that tailpipe on the edge of town.

 

Can't speak globally, but it sure does here. I wonder if I've got things wired the wrong way around?