Honda:Honda Insight hybrid was an "unmitigated disaster"

The US isn't the only place the Insight is sold and the only place Honda developes its cars for.

I know a lot of people who dont like Automatics as they're generally less fun to drive, me included, if an Insight had a manual, i'd sell my Prius for it anyday. I think a manual Insight would also strengthen the sportier image Honda gives the Insight.

 

Also consider that HSD can propel the wheels without ICE.
The comparison should adress that option as well.

 

It might be an easy option for Honda. Like you say, they already have it in the CR-Z. The manual could be a lower cost option? Like you say, there is still a market for manuals (the original Insight had a manual option).

A lot of my customers ask if the Prius is available in a manual and look disappointed when I say not. Strange but true.

 

Exactly, i think a lot of people still love manuals. I really dont think it would be a hard job for Honda to create a manual insight and i deffinately think there would be a market, i really dont like the Honda CVT under hard acceleration, it's a louder more annoying drone than the Prius.

 

As is the Insight doesn't sell a ton and most of North America does not care about manuals. Maybe it would sell elsewhere, but I guarantee a manual Insight would not sell many units whatsoever in the US. This is certainly why there isn't one available now. It's technically very achievable.

 

I've been watching this thread for a while and have refrained from posting due mostly to some level of laziness... but today I decided to add a bit of context since most Prius owners are a smart bunch and we do not shy from more accurate info than what we often read:

1. The HSD architecture is without peer in overall performance and dependability.
2. There's no doubt an HSD equipped vehicle is the epithomy of full-hybridness and it shows in the hands of Prius expert drivers and average driving public alike.
3. It is not accurate to state that the IMA architecture especially so for Gen 4 and Gen 5 models is mild hybrid. Sure it is easier to see the world in black and while only but we are better than that aren't we? The GM BAS implementation is a fully qualified mild hybrid implementation in that it offers the least benefit to improved fuel economy and no significant changes to the primary power source. For those who recall it correctly, it was Ford marketing who incorrectly and somewhat maliciously labelled the Honda system as a mild hybrid... and it stuck unfortunately. The IMA system is technically a power assist hybrid architecture which unlike a true mild hybrid system, can also propel the vehicle in an electric only "mode".
4. A late generation IMA hybrid CANNOT be operated with a malfunctioning or absent battery pack in a sustainable manner. No ifs of buts about it. Older IMA hybrids could, but the new ones will often not even start even if a small malfunction is detected. You can turn the master switch off at the IPU and that will put you in a limp mode but the car will be a slow and dangerous dog and soon die as the smallish 12V battery depletes . Either way, this is NOT a significant advantage over the Prius system... at all.
5. Lastly, the IMA motor/stator was not build for HP numbers. It was designed to provide maximum torque figures at just 1000 rpm that almost match that of its gasoline engine at 6000 rpm. That is in part why it is NOT a mild hybrid implementation since the ICE can be significantly downsized to improve its FE numbers. Again, for those who care, look at the GM BAS system as an illustration of a true mild hybrid system.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Except they and most other manufacturers think that:
- not many Americans like manuals so they have limited models available with an MT
- most Americans who like manuals are boy racers, so they're geared short and therefore give away some of their efficiency advantage.

Almost 95% of cars sold in the USA are now AT/CVT/eCVT.

It's not going to happen.

The Cruze Eco MT is offered because it provides enough of a bump to EPA and enough good press to help sell the Cruze. An Insight MT wouldn't help enough.

 

Manuals in the United States are basically now relegated to:

1) Performance cars
2) Entry level versions of a car

You can no longer buy a Maxima with a manual (broke my heart and is my name sake) and if you want an Accord, Camry, Fusion, etc, you can get it manual--if you want the entry one. V6 forget it, auto or nothing now.

 

Honda still sells the Accord Coupe V6, 6sp manual

 

Altima Coupe v6 actually still comes manual but nobody buys them

 

Most people do believe they are smarter than average.

The HSD does not perform as well in other non-Prius variants such as the disappointing HS250h and the underperforming CT200h. The Prius design and form factor is the real differentiator not the HSD.

The IMA is a mild assist system for both acceleration and braking added to an already capable ICE system.

Running an IMA system without the traction battery in some models is akin to running a normal ICE with a broken alternator/belt. The original Insight and some Civics include a backup alternator.

quote: Operating in the motor mode, the IMA motor/generators starts the gasoline engine and instantly spins it up to 1000 rpm. As a back-up, this job can be handled by the Honda’s conventional 12-volt starter if, for example, the battery module state-of-charge is too low, the car is operating in extremely cold or hot weather, or in the unlikely event the IMA system fails. Inside the Honda IMA Hybrid System | GreenCar.com

The fundamental IMA architecture allows this flexibility. Not so with the HSD which requires an operating battery in each variant since the wheels are connected directly to the electrical motor in the HSD architecture.

 

This is an evolution in your trolling. Now it's not that Toyota's revolutionary HSD system is good, it's that the Prius has a really aerodynamic shape. Of course, no mention of how Toyota using its HSD manages to give a fast 7 seater AWD SUV with a 3500 (or 4500?) lb tow capacity better mileage than a Chevy Cruze ECO in the city, but that's not surprising. Can't be the HSD, must be that form factor of the Highlander. Good stuff.

 

The HSD system helps, especially in city driving and so does the IMA but, by no means, is it the best hybrid implementation for all design points. The HS250h is a good example of how badly it can suck, rivaling how much the IMA sucks in the Insight II (a Prius wannabe)... hence the unmitigated disaster.

 

man, then you really must hate the Volt, how badly can that car suck eh?

 

Since you're saying we're a smart bunch and don't shy away from accuracy, I hope that applies to you as well. I'm thinking you were just typing quickly, but here's a couple observations:

Epitome
Black and white
labeled
ifs, ands or buts
built

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. For your IMA claims, I need to do some technical reading.

 

Sigh... more of your usual ridiculous trolling. Ok, find me a currently sold as new non-hybrid or mild hybrid, or IMA based car sold in the US that has all of these compared to the HS 250h: equivalent or better acceleration in the 1/4 mile or 0-60 mph, 187 hp, equivalent or better combined/overall fuel economy.

I liked my one week free test drove of a HS for a week where I put over 800 miles on it.

 

No trolling here. You either have blinders on or work with Toyota.

The Sonata Hybrid at 206 hp (20 more than the HS 250h) is rated at EPA 36/40 mpg (1-6mpg better), 0-60mph in 9s (MT). No HSD system needed.

"The TMED enables our 40 mpg highway mileage and high-speed EV operation. Because the torque from the motor runs through all of the transmission's six gears, we can keep the motor running at its optimal rpm," Guin says. Electric motors are more efficient running at lower speeds.
The clutching system enables the gearbox to receive power from the 30-kilowatt (40.8-hp) electric motor, the 166-hp 2.4-liter Atkinson cycle four-cylinder gasoline engine, or both
Hyundai hybrid sets pace for highway mpg | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews

 

Whether the "regulars" like it or not here, the Volt is currently the only factory plugin hybrid in the marketplace. Until someone else shows up with one, it has no competition to compare against. Compare this to the Insight II's situation where I can say it's uncompetitive and a wasted effort on Honda's part.

 

Don't bother. Manuel knows his hybrids extremely well, particularly IMA.

 

No trolling?!?!?! You gotta kidding me! If you don't consider your previous posts full of lies, exaggerations, slander, misinformation, etc. as trolling... boy.

Nope, I don't work with nor for Toyota and never have. But ok, you got me. You found one. How many more are there? They also need to be the same price or less than the HS.

It also just became available within the past week judging by Hyundai-Forums.com : Hyundai Forum -> Sonata YF Hybrid. It was originally delayed until later this month. The 2010 HS shipped in late 09.