First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next week

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Several responders speak of what the Volt will become in the second generation, or in 2 years, or in 10 years, with respect to the G3 Prius. Might it be a fair assumption that Toyota will continue to make advances in the forth generation? in 2 years?and in 10 years?

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Interesting points. I hadn't seen all these counterpoints.
I'm not saying we should completely move to natural gas, that would take decade or more to do anyway. But it's a lot cheaper to have a natural gas powered car than an electric car, from what I've seen. Electric cars are only forecast to be 5% or so of sales a decade from now, why not have another 5 or 10% that are natural gas? The remaining should be hybrids, of course.

Natural gas prices are low right now because they're producing more than they really need to. If prices went up, production would go up (I'm not sure how much, obviously that takes a lot of research and maybe some guessing). And even right now, they're still flaring off natural gas at quite a few oil wells as an unneeded by-product. That's what really gets my goat, unused energy being burned for no purpose. Okay, you'd need to build new pipelines to transport it, but it's better than just turning it into CO2.

Canadian natural gas production has tightened up, but that's because they're using so much of it to convert their oil sands (very heavy crude) into a shippable product. If we didn't need so much of their oil, they'd have more natural gas available. Bottom line, our natural gas supplies are much better than our oil supplies.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

I'm not assuming anybody is staying static. But you got to start from somewhere, and if GM didn't build Volt, they'd be that much further behind. At least they're assembling the technology and talent they need to build a cool affordable highly efficient PHEVs and HEVs, even if the Volt isn't there yet. I assume this isn't the last we hear from GM on this issue.

If you look at it, I'd call the Gen 1 and Gen 2 Prius both revolutionary, and the Gen 3 more evolutionary. The design is maturing, and now they just have to apply it to more models. GM (and other manufacturers) can see what worked for the Prius and copy those parts (with their own spin on it, to avoid patent issues), and soon be only a few years behind instead of a decade behind. That would still be good for the consumers who only want to buy American.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Hey nerfer,

Just to add some facts to your NG quest, texas estimates that they can produce enough natural gas to power 1 million cars. I am unsure what the current US capacity is. That still would displace a lot of foreign oil, and NG is especially valuable for interstate trucking where electricity is not practical and in polluted cities because of its lower tail pipe emissions. Texas made flaring illegal in the 50s and built much of the state's grid on NG. Flaring should be made illegal everywhere.

Natural Gas production can be ramped up quicker to serve more cars, but any abrupt increase greatly increases price. If we replaced everything with NG we would also run out much more quickly. The biggest potential surge in demand would occur in a drought in the west. A drought causes less hydro electricity that is replaced with NG generated electricity. That potential for price spikes is one reason texas is building wind so fast, to decouple electricity prices from NG prices.

NG, PHEV, and HV are all part of the solution, and all are better than conventional cars. We will need plug ins in 20 years, and if we don't start developing them now, they will not be on the road when we need them. What is toyota's latest add campaign, 80% of toyota's built 20 years ago are still on the road.

I think you have a little trouble with the Canadian production of oil. Oil is Fungable. At these prices if the us did not buy the oil it would not lessen Canadian production, it would simply go to different customers, likely china. IMHO OPEC may raise production targets but the price will not drop because of speculation. In the longer term opec will adjust their production based on prices and non-Opec production.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Absolutely, imports from unfriendly countries is probably 25% of our total consumption. The best way to cut it is to get the SUV and Minivan drivers to switch to 40 MPG Prius v. 2 million Prii are already cutting millions of gallon. Prius c and PHV will continue to add multiplication factor.

There are also other cordless hybrids from Ford, Hyundai, Inifiti, etc.. We don't need a plug to achieve the goal, as hyped up to be. The plug will help us to achieve our goals faster but it has limitations.

Volt will replace the ready efficient compact cars so it won't cut much. $41k also limit the multiplication factor. Voltec isn't suitable for bigger vehicle, per GM. There is a Volt MVP concept but we don't know if it will make it to production.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

How much cheaper? Would it still be cheaper if the equivalent gas taxes were added?

Didn't Texas just experience rolling blackouts because of a gas shortage? - Just ribbin' you a bit here.

Wind is great. Though it's pretty clear that we need a lot more renewable sources of electricity as well. Hopefully PV keeps on decreasing in price - I suspect that in 2-3 years PV will reach grid parity in many markets instead of only the ones who have high peak rates.

Definitely.

In the long term, yes. But look at the Brent/WTI spread right now - it's nearly $20/barrel because of how much is stuck in the midwest (and backing up into Canada!).

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Grr. Incopetant grid management, so that people did not get warning, and non weatherized power plants. I'm still mad. I didn't lose power at my house, but the restaurant I tried to eat lunch at was closed do to black outs. I don't think we will know for a while exactly who screwed up.

It depends where you live. PV is subsidised here, but wind is much cheaper. There is a spread of about 2.5 cents a kwh more for wind than ng, but at that price you can lock in wind rates, while ng can go up.
Many states have good sun, but not good sources of wind. I think California has both.

Its a refining problem, most refineries can't deal with the low quality stuff. The low quality stuff also requires a lot more energy to refine. Given the high spreads, I wouldn't be surprised if congress gives refiners even more of a subsidy to modify more refineries to handle it. In the short run the sands can't expand fast, but if you look at a 2 year horizon there will be refining capacity in the US or china. I would rather use the ng to power BEV and PHEV through the grid, than use it to refine oil sand gasoline.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Yes...

With the Volt's extra cost and loss of efficiency over the PHEV Prius you're basically getting insurance. You're hedging your bets.

1. If there's war w/ Iran and $400/bbl oil? Or we find out the Saudis were really overstating their reserves by A LOT? Well, hey now, that Volt is starting to look pretty good. 13 mile range on the Prius? meh.

2. If not, and oil stays cheap, well, you paid more and you're getting lower energy efficiency.

I think the risks of scenario 1 are pretty dire. Maybe I'm silly, but I'm just not comfortable buying another car that requires gasoline. The PHEV prius pretty much requires gasoline. My next car will either be all electric or something like the volt.

Then again, if oil/gas prices get that high, driving will be the least of our concerns.

By using this calculator, it looks like the Volt (electric only) starts making sense over the regular Prius at about $4/gal over 60 months. (though they don't account for sales tax, which in CA is almost 10%)

Assuming the PHEV Prius gets 65 "mpg" (they don't have it on their list), even at $4/gal the regular Prius is a better deal than the PHEV

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Yep.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

What are the chances that these first 1000 volts will be on the road in 10 years? I still see plenty of original Priuses running strong after 10 years. God help the Volt early adopters. Sure, every Chevy wins the "JD Power award for initial quality", but the Edsel probably seemed great the first day too.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

That's the big unknown with the volt.

It certainly SEEMS better made than any other chevy I've experienced (from my short time in one).

That crummy little engine in it is worrisome, also all those clutches.

Ostensibly, the EV parts (sans battery) should last 100 years.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

They have produced a lot more than 1000 and to answer your question; highly likely.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Agreed and thank you

 

This,1000%. It seems like most people do not understand how many things come from oil. People will look back and say in disbelief "they burned it?????"

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Chevrolet Volt not listed among Smartway Elite* vehicles on epa.gov Green Vehicle Guide, listed only as SmartWay along with many conventional cars like regular civic, Chevy Cruze, and more.

Not only is Prius Smartway Elite, the upcoming CT200h is as well. Click on rightmost box, SmartWay / Elite to find out.

Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA

* based on CA search

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Thanks for a great link. Ditto in NY as well. Anyone can select their state and the site shows the list.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

That's quite an assumption. 25 miles during the winter doesn't get you too far. The engine runs for warm-up regardless of charge-level anyway. Most people drive somewhere else besides just to work and back. Real-World demands will cause the engine to run on a regular basis... especially if people are recharging during off-peak hours.
.

 

Re: First Chevy Volt EV hybrid taken home from dealer today, 360 will be delivered over the next wee

Interesting site. I wonder why the Prius is NOT listed as Smartway Elite for Colorado, Utah or New Mexico. I checked for 2009, 2010 and 2011.

Larry