I officially hate my prius and toyota

I just read through the thread and I've got to say to the OP, the people here are very smart and the members specifically you are talking to know more about the Prius than probably anybody other than the engineers who designed it. You have an opportunity here that you are squandering.

Do you just want to bitch or do you want help? These people are trying to help you, but in order for them to help you they need you to go through a specified set of steps so they can methodically go through your specific concerns and try and help you with your issue. These people are just Prius owners like you and me...they receive no compensation for the help they are giving you...

If you want that help...you might want to try simply answering the questions they ask instead of being combative with them because they asked them.

Just a friendly suggestion.

I'm going to ask you a question too...please forgive me if you have answered this question before here or in another thread...honestly I don't care enough to read through all your posts, have you owned this car since new? Because again, I'm here for my own enjoyment not yours and am taking time out of my morning, uncompensated, to try and help you.

I ask because my family has owned Toyotas for 25 years and I have NEVER had one with a weld failure like that. Nor have I heard about issues such as that here or in any Toyota forum, and I have frequented Toyota forums for about 15 years. That is either a fluke, or the car was repaired improperly following a serious rear end collision, which is what it sounds like to me.

And why would a body perforation, which is what you describe is, not be covered under the corrosion warranty?

 

You've said that you found the mileage dropped off for you around 48,000kms, you've also said that was about a year ago. In August you mentioned that you have 62,000 kms, so if these numbers are all accurate estimations, I'd guess that you are somewhere around 76,000kms now?

If you bought the vehicle in January of 2007, that would mean that for the first 3 years you were averaging about 1,300km/month, and that this past year, when your mileage has dropped significantly, you have been averaging about 2,300km/month. That is an extra 1,000km/month. Clearly your driving habits have changed during this past year.

While it seems odd that your "engine runs almost all of the time", that alone isn't necessarily a problem. You have mentioned that the Toyota dealer isn't interested in diagnosing your problem. I sympathize with your frustrations. However, you seem more interested in complaining about your problem and about Toyota than actually getting your problem fixed. If you are just here because you want to complain somewhere that will get you some attention, I hope your ego is now satisfied.

On the other hand, if you are here because you are looking for some help and advice in dealing with your problem, then it is important that you answer specific questions, and attempt specific tests. A general sense of "the ICE runs 90% of the time no matter what I do" is not useful diagnostic information. There are too many questions left unanswered in that statement, such as "What is happening during the 10% of the time when the ICE isn't running?", and "What is the HV battery display on the MFD doing throughout your drive?" for example.

There are several very qualified technicians that frequent PriusChat. If you are willing to run specific tests (not just answer with what your general impressions are) and respond with accurate answers to those tests, it is entirely possible that you will receive some useful information to take to a dealership. Information that might be useful in convincing them that you have an actual problem that they should look into.

If you take the vehicle to another dealership and they diagnose and repair issues you are having, then please consider that you have a bad dealership, and not necessarily a bad brand. At that time please consider writing 2 letters to Toyota Canada. The first letter should be addressed to the first dealership and Toyota Canada expressing your frustrations and disappointment. Toyota Canada needs to know that dealership is damaging their brand. The second letter should be addressed to Toyota Canada and the second dealership expressing your relief and thankfulness for finding a dealership that cares about keeping loyal customers satisfied. The dealership and its employees should be recognized as an example to other dealerships.

 

In his very first sentence of his very first post of this thread, the OP said:

But I am also surprised that repair of a body perforation would not be covered under the standard manufacturers warranty if the vehicle is still in the warranty period. On the other hand I don't know what the manufacturer's warranty period is in Canada, nor do we really know how many miles were on the odometer when the OP brought the vehicle into the dealership with the leak.

 

This is a little bit misleading. The dealer did a bit more than that.

You claim that they "gingerly drove it around the block", but since you weren't in the vehicle with them at the time, that isn't much more than a frustrated guess. Whichever dealership you try next, it might be worthwhile to ask if they'd let you ride along when they take it out to diagnose it. You might notice something they do that keeps the problem from happening, or you might be able to point out something they should try to demonstrate the problem.

 

Ok Brook, here is a copy of the questionare you are having difficulty locating
- Have you read This Thead Yet?

- What fuel economy are you getting and how are you determining fuel economy? (trip computer or manual calculations)

- What fuel economy are you expecting and why?

- What are the approximate outside air temps?

- How long are your trips?

- How much of it is city vs. highway? Roughly what's the average speed in overall and and of each segment? Is there a lot of stop and go driving?

- What region/state are you in? (if you haven't set your location in your profile)

- What's the terrain like of your drives? (e.g. flat, gentle hills, steep hills, etc.)

- Is your oil overfilled? (i.e. above the full mark on the dipstick)

How old is your 12v battery? What is the voltage reading of your 12v battery after sitting over night? (Method Here)

Have you had your alignment checked? Any pulling or abnormal tire wear?

- Are you using the factory tires and wheels? If not, please indicate tire make, model and size (e.g. Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max 185/65R15).

- What are your tire pressures?

- Make, model, year, engine and transmission of previous car? (e.g. 08 Honda Civic Si 2.0L 4 cylinder, manual transmission) What did you actually get on the same trips/commute? (Please give us actual numbers, not EPA ratings.)

- How are you trying to drive (e.g. trying to stay in electric only?) and how hard are you braking?

- Are you "warming up" the ICE (internal combustion engine) by letting it idle after powering on?

- Are you driving using D or B mode?

- HVAC settings? Are you using the heater, AC, auto mode, etc.? If using auto, what temp is it set to?

- If reporting a mileage drop, did anything significant change on your car (e.g. accident, hit a curb or big pothole throwing off alignment, oil change/other maintenance/repairs, changed tires or wheels, etc.) or your commute?

Please answer the questions above so the PC community can help you trouble shoot your troubles. For the record there are users here I'd trust way more than a Prius Tech, for most techs this is just a job but for DIYers this is a passion. It's also possible that the techs would prefer their SuperPrius Tech identities kept private and answer in their mild mannerd alter egos. Ryan

 

You "drop it into B" a lot?

 

No expert. All that issue with water in the back and filling the spare well etc seems like a flag to check the hybrid battery and related connections ????

 

The standard list of questions was devised to try and simplify the process of helping people reporting concerns about poor fuel economy. The list helps identify and eliminate the most common problems so it's become a PriusChat standard to ask posters to answer the questions. Eliminating the easier cases allows technical experts like Patrick to focus their attention on the more difficult problems. In that sense, it acts like a standard helpdesk structure.

I understand, from reading your posts, how frustrated and angry you are but if you can try to keep those emotions out of your posts if will keep posts shorter and clearer and make it easier for people to help. There are people who post on PriusChat who know the Prius better than the average dealership technician and their advice can help avoid unnecessary costs.

It will also help to keep your original post up to date with any new information or to edit it to clarify information. This reduces the chance that people new to the thread will add to your frustration and repeat questions you've already answered. Then if they do you can either ignore their question or very briefly point them to your original post.

I wish you well in getting your problems solved.

 

Its becoming extremely frustrating responding to your half answers to everybody's questions too.

So the simple answer to the friendly member's question (who remember is simply someone who is posting here in their free time for their own enjoyment, who is taking time out of his day to try and help you) is no...

So sorry to trouble you sir. We'll all be patiently sitting here waiting for your schedule to open up to we can have the incredible pleasure of serving you further.

Sheesh. When you act like this towards us, I can only imagine how you are with the dealer's personnel. One wonders why the dealer hasn't gone out of their way to help you with your issue.

You've had members who are Prius Techs post in this thread already and you've ignored those posts and refused to answer the questions they've asked you. One of their names is "Prius Tech" pretty clear.

And again, in case it didn't sink in the other few times I've said it, everybody here...including people who are Prius techs, are here for their own enjoyment. Danny can't just "have someone PM you". You've gotten offers of help here...you just won't accept them.

 

That's what I thought.

The OP may of noticed it as a singular event, once a certain level of failure was reached, but it could be that it's been slowly leaking for a long time.

I'd start there.

Also to the OP, unless you simply get a great technician to look at your vehicle, this simply might become one of those unfortunate situations where something does have to get worse before getting better.

Without admonishing you for being frustrated about your problems. I'd say being a purchaser of a new vehicle I understand your frustration. It seems dealership service has changed. What ECU's and computer controlled systems can do for a modern vehicle, Prius and otherwise is incredible. But it also seems today, that with dealerships if a "code" isn't thrown...they use it as a blanket excuse to tell you nothing is wrong.

I really think my car could be backfiring, shooting flame from the tail pipe and billowing smoke from the engine and IF it wasn't showing a code? The Dealership would tell me it was fine...

Computer dependency has led to a decline in skilled mechanics, and also made dealerships Lazy. Just my opinion.

If it makes you feel any better, this reality isn't limited to Prius or just Toyota.

 

Thats very true. One big reason why I've found that when your car gets to the point where you require a mechanic to actually repair things you're better off not using the dealer. The dealer is more expensive, and they aren't really trained to troubleshoot and diagnose issues and are dependent on the computer codes and the remedies that are shown in the service manual for the car. For instance...dealers anymore don't repair things, they just replace things until the problem goes away...which is wasteful and expensive, when the company is paying for that waste through the warranty thats fine...but when I'm paying for it? No thanks.

Issue with a high tech car like the Prius is there aren't a lot of independent options...

 

Perhaps an easy check is to visibly examine the traction battery for any rust spots. If it got water damaged a year ago, maybe there will be a sign. At the very least you would expect some evidence of dirt drying as liquid does leaving a streak or a pool of dirt in one location as it evaporated out. So when you get to the HV battery area be careful and try to notice any residue or dirt.

Also seems strange for the whole weld leak issue. Anything is possible, Toyota is not infallible, but it is highly unlikely to happen let alone pass the spot weld inspection or the final inspection. Perhaps the inspector was out sick that day and they had a temp fill in?

I would agree that if the weld had been leaking since you bought the car, then who knows how much water has gotten into it and what it could have done. Perhaps another test is to read all the cell voltages. Also have the dealer perform the Ah test on the HV battery.

Charge the battery, discharge the battery. Measure the power in, power out, and voltage levels at all charges and inbetween. This can measure pack health and you can figure out if it is ok or not. However since you never answered the idle-stop question we dont know if this is the issue or not.

Just answer the questions we ask of you. It is pretty obvious how you answer every post (pretty quickly) that doesnt have to do with diagnostic info.

 

Brook, Thanks for completing the survey. Now let the Prius Gurus work their magic. I only know how to work with people

 

Ok. Thank you for answering the questionnaire. The purpose is to have a good starting point and to get enough information. Prior to me formulating it, I found myself always having to read minimal or no information w/mileage complaints, having to craft a response that almost always had the same questions. Yet, much of the time, the OP never bothers even coming back to respond. Result? Wasted effort on my part and that of many others who also chime in to ask questions/try to help.

So, between when you were getting better mileage and now, your commute hasn't changed at all? It's always between 25 km and over the same route?

Can you please check the battery condition via the method mentioned in the question? Just because it was replaced doesn't mean it wasn't a dud or hasn't gone bad.

I would get your alignment checked at some point, but that would be unrelated to your complaint of the ICE "always running". I'm unclear what tires you have on now. Please specify make, model and size.

For "warming up the ICE", stop doing it completely. Just go. You are getting 0 mpg for that entire duration.

Regarding HVAC settings, when the ICE is cold, turn the fan to off but if you want some warmth, set the temp to HI. You'll at least get some heat from ram air coming in, when moving.

I've confirmed that leaving the HVAC in auto can cause the ICE to start and run to provide cabin heat. I was able to repro once w/auto and temp at 73 F as coolant temp fell to 145 F (but didn't repro it later) and at 76 F. Pressing off, immediately caused the ICE to shutdown. I'm guessing whether the ICE starts depends on how much heat the system demands. (I almost never use auto and always manage my heater use to avoid having the ICE run to provide cabin heat.)

"I drove off the lot and in 5 blocks was back at an AVG of 6.8." would be ~34 miles per US gallon. That doesn't seem abnormal for a 5 block drive. Short drives, esp. in cold weather kill mileage.

If I lived in Vancouver, I'd loan you my http://www.scangauge.com/ so that you could monitor coolant temperature, engine RPM, ignition timing, etc. to see if there's anything unusual. Perhaps someone in BC can loan you theirs. I doubt you're eager to spend ~$160 US, just to monitor these parameters.

Patrick Wong is one of our resident repair experts. I would heed his advice first. There are a couple other repair experts on PC.

 

Now may not be the time, but could you try to drive a single tank with no climate controls? No heat, no air, no defrost, no venting. Just off. I know you say it makes no impact, but it is one of the things that causes what is happening and is normal to happen.

When we rule out all "normal" possibilities of you getting these numbers, then we can move to abnormal.

 

I also might suggest you try and calculate the mileage yourself longhand vs relying on the display.

I also agree that US 34MPG is about what we get in the winter on short trips.