How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

^^ no lies, just your ignorance making you look a fool.

I stand corrected. A couple dozen*months mules of the Volt.

 

so, were they correct on the price then? 'effectively under 30K after rebate , reduced maintenance and gas savings.'

 

I provide a link that proves you 100% wrong and you think I am ignorant and look like a fool? Five seconds with google brings up many more links just like it.

 

Mules only test the powertrain. There are a lot more to it than the powertrain.

The original statement made in 2007 was not after the tax credit. Even with the tax credit, a base model of the Volt still come out to $33.5k.

Regarding the maintenance, Volt has 3 coolants (anti-freeze) to change. It also has 3 clutches in the transmission. I don't think they need to be replaced but I guess only time will tell.

Volt's gas saving comes with the expense of electricity. It's cordless MPG is a minor improvement, something that assist hybrids had been doing for a decade.

Volt will not recharge it back to full but it will recharge it up to certain level. It has a maximum and minimum level just like how Prius operates.

Volt owners are free to jump in with the exact state of charge numbers.

PHV Prius does use electricity from the grid. Majority of the electricity are generated from Coal and other fossil fuel unfortunately. Because PHV Prius is more efficient with the electricity (than Volt or Leaf), overall emission is about the same as the standard HV Prius. The goal of PHV Prius is to displace gasoline with electricity (only when it is worth it). If you calculate gasoline displacement per kWh of electricity, PHV Prius does more than the Volt. Isn't this the whole point of the Volt? Use domestic electricity to displace foreign oil? You want to use the least amount of electricity (due to emission) and displace the most amount of foreign oil. PHV Prius beats Volt in it's own game in that sense, especially if you throw in the affordability for the mass.

The goal is not to make OPEC rich and not leave us filthy (emission). There is a balance to be reached. The best solution is the most efficient (green) powertrain for both gas and electric. Volt guzzlers both in the "green" car category. It is the worse offender and happens to cost the most. Therefore, it earned my criticism.

I thought I was clear on post #24. PHV Prius' preconditioning feature restores most of those EV range. In case you missed it, here it is again:

That matches with the data Lyle Dennis collected. He drove 314 miles on the battery on 12 fully charged trips. Per EPA, it takes 12.9 kWh per charge so he consumed 155 kWh for 314 miles.

155 kWh / 314 miles = 494 Wh per mile.

 

^^ Yep.
Volt fans would like to believe that this is worse case scenario, but as the log shows most of the days were driven on dry roads and ambient temps in the high 20's to mid 30's F. I don't live in severe winter country, yet that kind of weather in the winter would be described as moderate around here.

That the Prius trounces the Volt in winter driving energy/mile calculations under the conditions stated (grid power plant average) should not surprise anybody after a little thought. The Prius acts as a combined heat and power plant in the winter, whereas grid plants in the US are overwhelmingly discarding their waste heat.

And by the way, the lopsided high energy consumption of Volt winter driving is actually quite a bit worse than I calculated earlier, because US electric plants waste on average about 10% of the electricity they generate, and transmission losses eat up another ~7%. So a closer real-life energy consumption for the Volt for plant to wheels in the cold in wh/mile is 500/(0.33*0.9*.93) = 1810 wh/mile.

For those keeping track, that is 288% more energy/mile than my Prius in plant-to-wheels comparisons. The PHV Prius could gain a real advantage vs the Volt if drivers could pick when to use EV: start with ICE to enjoy the waste heat, then switch to EV when the cabin is comfortable, or on the return trip if the ambient temperature is higher. The best cold driving efficiency in the Prius PHV will be a blended mode. Highway driving comes to mind.

 

hopefully, that prius car and brad rules will be able to jump into the conversation after they have adequate road time on brads new volt. otherwise, we're doing a lot of guessing and projecting here.

 

Actually, we have enough samples already to invalidate prior enthusiast claims. EV is no where near 40 miles in the winter, as they absolutely insisted it would be. And CS-mode efficiency is no where near the 50 MPG they had absolutely insisted was realistic.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. Hype can only thrive prior to rollout. Consumer endorsements are what draws sales. If owners are vague & ambiguous, the excitement will fade... exactly as we saw with Two-Mode.

Volt won't be "better" than Prius without proof to support the claim. Heck, even then it still has to make sense. Remember all the Hummer craziness?

People will want to know exactly what they are paying so much extra for; otherwise, the result will be a huge backlash of disappointment.

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One thing we still don't know though is how much of an impact A/C will have on range. For those down in the deep south where having it on all the time (like those of us in the north with the heater now) are guaranteed to see an impact too. It may not be as much, but then again keeping the battery-pack cool will require energy. Will the engine run once a high temperature threshold is reached, regardless of how much EV is still available?
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Hi USB. Thank you for this. You will however notice from my posts, I don't consider any objective fact inconvenient. I would much rather talk about facts than hurt feelings or false statements.

So what do we have from your post. A post saying GM will has not set the price, and an executive hinting that after deducting $7500 and gas savings it will effectively be less than $30,000. I read that is we won't set the price but hope we can sell it for $37K. If john had been saying he is mad at gm hype of maybe kind of $37K and it turned out at $41K when they actually priced it, I would think it was dribble, but would not consider it a lie. Definitely GM was not saying at the time of the article that the volt would be under $30K and it came in at $41K.

Then there is the meat of the response, a reference to lutz saying it in 2007. I do not know the context but I will take it as written. It was reported when lutz got gm to build the test car he thought he needed to build something like the yaris with a $10K battery to beat the prius. The guy was nuts and hated (probably still hates) the prius. If that is the hype john and you are contradict, you should read my word "lately" to see if I agree. For the last 3 years at least, since they actually put engineers on the project, no one has knowledgeable has quoted those low prices. At the time of the quote the volt show car had a cd of .41, you understand the thing may have changed from fantasy to reality.

How about keeping it on track and arguing about the value for those wanting a phev instead of misleading statements about expected pricing. Did you really think gm has been promising "Lately" that the car without rebates would sell for less than $30K.

You have been reading my posts. Exactly.

 

Actually, I have been skipping almost all your posts for a couple of months. I'll go out on a limb and say they have not changed much. Meaning facts do not change your fantasies.

 

No problem. The key is to show respect even though you strongly disagree. This way, when you go back and read your posts (after the dusts settle), they won't sound so bad.

Fotomoto fanned the fire and fled. He put zero contribution to the discussion.

I hope HopOnTour (or Volt owners) continue to bring different perspective to the discussion.

 

I have zilch interest in buying a Volt.
I have zilch interest in buying a Prius PHV 13.

I think that as tested the Prius PHV is counter-productive. Either you can easily bicycle the AER or you use up the charge and end up running the engine through a warm-up cycle anyway.

The only good thing about a low-range PHEV in the USA is that it can easily be charged from a regular socket.

A Prius PHV 40 or Prius PHV 50 would interest me greatly but I can't see it coming soon. Maybe when there are higher densities available Toyota will offer a longer range.

 

Think about how those who have a commute of only a few miles. Why pay for capacity you won't even use on a regular basis?

I live in the suburbs where everything is within a few miles and the fastest road is just 55 MPH. That makes the PHV absolutely perfect for my running around... which I know for a fact, since I already did that with one. I also averaged 80 MPG on my commute. So, that was obviously a good thing too.

Remember, it is much easier to scale something up than it is down. Starting with the minimum, especially when batteries are still so expensive, makes it a very good thing. The sub-pack design makes it convenient to increase capacity.
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I cannot vouch for the source, but I remember recently reading that the 3 sub-pack design will not continue into production.

^^ What would you say to an (overall) 70-80 mpg Prius, if the price was right ?
What would you say to that technology becoming universal in the US fleet, thereby decreasing national oil consumption and pollution from transportation by 2/3rds ?

 

If you only have a commute of a few miles:
- You can cycle it. If it's a bit tough you can always get an e-bike. A cheap one costs about $400, a reasonable one $1000. I suspect the up-charge on the Prius PHV will be much more than that. The added benefit is that you get some exercise.
- You aren't driving many miles on EV.

No, it's not perfect. It's far less than perfect.

If you don't travel long distances cycle.
If you can't just cycle get a BEV.
If the range of a BEV is too limiting but you are commuting short distances your P isn't doing much for your HEV.
If you commute a short distance but travel longer distances at other times a hybrid is not going to be much better than an ICEV since ICEV performance is closer to hybrid on longer journeys.
If you don't do many miles each year anyway you should have an efficient conventional car instead of a hybrid.

It's good to start small, but not so small it's counterproductive.

 

Here in Minnesota, that is totally unrealistic from mid-Oct to mid-Apr.
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Forgetting about the emission difference, eh?

And what about someone like my mom, who only has a 3-mile commute but often goes for long drives on the weekend and a trip up north from time to time?
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Please explain. Remember how the Volt enthusiasts relentlessly claimed EREV was better than PHEV, yet were never able to actually present information to support it... and still haven't.
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Sorry, I've been ill and didn't think my cold medicine fueled responses would make much sense.

I really don't think you can see past your hate at the big picture. Kinda' like an older sibling who is jealous of the all the attention the newborn baby is getting, you just can't accept the new kid as part of the family.

The volt is yet another arrow in the quiver of the hybrid army to fight the war on oil consumption; especially foreign. Come this spring, there should be demo units available. Please, please go drive one.

 

Then what?

Wasn't the purpose of Volt to be a clean, efficient, affordable alternative for vehicles like Cruze & Malibu?

If so, drive experience isn't a priority for those consumers. Suggesting otherwise indicates a different market, not a replacement for a vehicle normally in the top-selling (high-volume) list.
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Why ?

I won't take a chance on GM reliability or dealer support;
I despise GM the company and do not want my money in their coffers;
I will not spend ~ $US 35k on a 40 mile PHV

 

i'm with fotomoto, keeping an open mind, hoping for the best, even tho i have no faith in gm, maybe, somehow, some way, this will develop into a viable product. i see no point to dispariging it yet. the market will determine the winners and losers.

 

We've been through this already, with Two-Mode, and have been expressing the same concerns ever since. How much longer must we continue to wait... and for what?

Giving us a choice would be an entirely different matter. Then we actually could choose. Instead, all we get is a single Volt configuration that GM wants to sell us. There isn't a second being planned, only different body styles.

Imagine a model offering a smaller battery-capacity, an engine that's cleaner and more efficient, a modest interior & dash, with a much lower price. How come GM continues to extremely vague about intentions, yet knows the clock is ticking with the tax-credit and the CAFE requirements? They still also have more money to pay back.

What should our expectations be?
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