Is the dealership mandated to collect your SSN if you are paying for the car in cash?

I remember dealing with this when I purchased my 2010. The whole sorted story goes something like this:

Back in April, I told them I was going to be purchasing with cash, but they wanted to run my credit report "just in case I qualified for 0% financing..." to which I restated that I wanted to pay cash, I wasn't interested in financing the car. They seemed confused but we sat down with the paperwork - and the first form they hand me is a Credit Application form.

I tell the salesman that I intend to pay cash for the car, therefor - I am not going to fill out the credit application form, as they don't need my work history, social security number, etc to sell me a car. His manager tells me it's standard, and they cannot sell me a car without running a credit report. So, at this point I cross my arms, and tell them I won't purchase that car, or any others - cash or credit - if that was their policy.

They ran it by their sales manager, who had to run it by the general manager. After about twenty minutes, they come back with a simple form that asks for my social security number, name and address - basically a statement that 'I was purchasing the car with legally obtained funds and that I was authorizing a report be made to the IRS according to law, and that the dealership would only retain this information for compliance reasons' or some such legalize. They got the original, I got a copy - they took a check - I signed another form saying if the check bounced, they could repo the car and 'seek legal remedies' (check went through without a hitch). Even drove the car home within an hour of the whole affair.

I think a lot of dealers aren't sure what to do with 'cash&carry' customers, since they are a bit rare - and their minds immediately race to the less-than-legit side of reality. My parents tell me it's quite common as they have rarely purchased a car on credit - settling instead to pay for it with cash.

 

^Eh. How rare it is to buy with cash really depends where you live since car prices are pretty even across the country but median incomes are not.

 

Here's my story, just slightly off topic. I was ready to write a check for my '06 Prius and the sales mgr. insisted on a credit app. anyway. I listed only my income from Social Security, figuring my investment/retirement accounts were none of her business. Without getting my credit report, she told me I wouldn't qualify to buy the car, based not on my credit, but on my income. I reminded her that I was paying cash, but she wouldn't budge. She lost a sale to another dealer.

 

As pointed out on page 2 of this thread, the dealer does not need SSN for customers paying by personal check. The bank already has it and is already doing the necessary reporting to Big Brother, under rules long predating the post-9/11 laws.

Green cash is different.

 

That form was unneeded.
Interesting on how these things are interpreted. That form is for folks paying cash. Greenbacks. Bills. Not writing checks.

If you write a personal check, we get SS and run a single credit bureau to verify your ID + make sure we can expect that check to be good by the time we deposit it. Credit history is the way to ensure you have a solid buyer.

By the way, a cashier's check for us means I do not have to run a credit check, BUT I do still need a # in that spot.

 

As I already pointed out earlier in this thread, that does not apply when a check (including cashiers check) is used.

 

No, that's not true.

A personal check could theoretically be no good so dealers take credit info. That's a business decision. If I wrote a check for a car, my store wouldn't take my personal info... they know me, and know I would never write them a hot check. Example: last night, my son's best friend's mom came in for a preowned car from me... I know them, and trust that their check is good.

If we do not know you, or your situation, then it's just financial russian roulette to take a check and NOT get some personal info to make sure there is a reasonable expectation for it to clear. BY the way, the ol' "call to see if it's good" won't fly either. One phone call or internet log in and money transfer and the check could be no good in seconds.

If you put yourself in the dealership's shoes... as if you are selling your own personal car or personal property in your own driveway, what would you do?

 

I.e. it is not a Patriot Act legal requirement.

As this thread shows, I am not unique in paying by personal check without providing SSN. But the dealership did have weeks to evaluate my risk by whatever undisclosed channels they use.

 

I'm not talking about anyone in particular.
I was referring to WHY someone paying cash is not the same as paying by cashier's check or paying by personal check. These things are vastly different.

There are a different set of rules for each scenario.

 

if you want the car before the check clears, you will most likely need to provide extra info. some business' will not accept a personal check at all.

 

Ah yes, it all comes back to me now. This originated in the early 1980's as an "Operation Greenwatch" in the Miami / Dade County area. If there is a cash transaction of $10,000 or more, the banks are required to notify the Feds. This operation was an attempt by the government to stem the flow of illegal drug activity in South Florida. So, drug dealers got smart and stated making bank deposits of $9,000 per bank, per tranaction, bypassing the reporting requirement by the bank.

Now, if you try to buy a car with cash, you could very well be at risk of being labeled a "terrorist" - HLS.

Dbcassidy

 

that's funny, i always thought it was vegas.

 

Caveat: I'm a big fan of the Prius, but I don't own one. This is just the best forum where I've seen intelligent discussion on this topic.

I was told by the dealer your SSN was required for title, to be registered by the state. Is this true? Does it vary by the state?

All of the other stipulations are moot because:

a) The transaction is < $10k.
b) The purchase is via credit card.

 

It probably varies by state. My state requires registrations and annual renewals to be linked to an owner's driver's license, absent certain exceptions for which I don't qualify. Social security numbers are already tagged to the drivers license, again absent certain exceptions.

 

There have been problems with bogus cashiers checks. I hope you at least check with the issuing bank if there is any doubt about the customer.

 

I just bought a car and to the best of my knowledge, I didn't give them my SSN.
They did ask for it. I told them that they didn't need it, and we left it at that.
I'm a military vet with a security clearance and I've been a CCP holder on and off for 25+ years.
Think there are reams of documents out there with my SSN????
You bet your bippy!
Fingerprints too...like every time my clearance or CCP were renewed!
They even have my DNA (a couple of times.)
So.....it's really not the top turd in my pile if you know what I mean.
However (comma!) I still prefer to give PPI out rather sparingly. I picked through the three pages of this thread and I have yet to see where anyone has identified what part of the Patriot Act (or any other act) has anything to do with a dealership requiring you to provide your SSN for a transaction where they are not required to do a credit check.
But hey....why let facts get in the way of a good argument.
I hate it when the only rejoinder that people have to a lively debate is :
Source?...
Source?...
Source?...
So...I dug around a little bit.
I'm not a Lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I haven't seen anything, and like I said before, about three months ago I bought a car sans SSN.
So.....
Go to your bank or CU and get a loan.
Go to the dealer and get a car.
If you want to give them your SSN...I don't think it will be the end of the world, but there IS no federal law that I'm aware of that requires you to fork it over.
Period.
If they say that there is, there is a 100-percent chance that they're either lying about it (which means that you really should not be buying a car from them!) OR...my dealer if flouting this as-yet unidentified federal law.

Don't like the Patriot Act?
Well....that's a different topic for a different part of the forum.
I respect the opinions of the Fourth Amendment crowd, even when they disrespect those that try to equally defend the other amendments in our Bill of Rights.

 

From Internal Revenue Service: Report of Cash Payments Over $10,000 Received in a Trade or Business - Motor Vehicle Dealership Q&As

Generally, any person in a trade or business who receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or related transactions must complete a Form 8300, Report of Cash Payments Over $10,000 Received in a Trade or Business (PDF). Form 8300 is a joint form issued by the IRS and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) and is used by the government to track individuals that evade taxes and those who profit from criminal activities.

Can you guess what goes in box 6 on Form 8300? That's right, the buyer's Social Security Number.

From the FAQ:

1. • Cash is money. It is currency and coins of the United States and any other country.
   • Cash is also certain monetary instruments - a cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check, or money order - if it has a face amount of $10,000 or less and the business receives it in:
     
     1. A “designated reporting transaction” as defined in Treas. Reg. section 1.6050I-1(c)(iii) (generally, a retail sale of a consumer durable, a collectible, a travel or entertainment activity) or
     2. Any transaction in which the recipient knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting of the transaction on Form 8300.
2. What is a designated reporting transaction?Generally, a designated reporting transaction is the retail sale of any of the following:
   • A consumer durable, such as an automobile or boat. Property is generally a consumer durable if it is tangible personal property (not real or intangible property) that:
     
     • Is generally suited for personal use,
     • Is expected to last at least one year under ordinary use, and
     • Has a sale price of more than $10,000.
   • A collectible (such as a work of art, rug, antique, metal, gem, stamp, or coin)
   • An item of travel and entertainment (if the total sales price of all items for the same trip or entertainment event is more than $10,000).
3. Form 8300 requires providing the Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) of the person providing the cash. If the business is unable to obtain the Taxpayer Identification Number of a customer making a cash payment of over $10,000, should the business file Form 8300 anyway?Yes, to fail to file the Form 8300 is prohibited in this situation. However a filer may be able to avoid penalties when the customer refuses to provide a TIN by showing that its failure to file is reasonable under circumstances more fully described in 26 CFR 301.6724-1(e). At a minimum:
   • The business should request the TIN at the time of the transaction. If the person providing the cash refuses to provide the TIN, the business should inform the person required to provide the TIN that he or she is subject to a $50 penalty imposed by the Internal Revenue Service under section 6723 [26 USCS § 6723] if he or she fails to furnish his or her TIN;
   • Maintain contemporaneous records showing the solicitation was properly made and provide such contemporaneous records to IRS upon request,
   • Accompany the incomplete filed Form by a statement explaining why the TIN is not included.
   • If a TIN is not received as a result of the initial solicitation (at the time of the transaction) the first annual solicitation must be made on or before December 31 of the year in which the account was opened (transaction occurred) or January 31 of the following year for accounts opened in the preceding December following the same procedures.
4. Pub 1544 (March 2009 is the latest version) describes the entire process & contains a sample Form 8300.

 

The above is indeed correct.
If you walk in and drop a bundle of currency on the dealership's desk?
Yeah.
They have to pop a flare over Big Brother's collection agency (the IRS.)
Nothing new there.
Do a loan at your bank, and then go to the dealership?
No.
They don't the SSN.

The operative word is CASH....and WRT the original question, the answer is "yes."

Whether or not this is a travesty to the Forth Amendment?
Eh?
....not my call.

 

Funny that I had just read this thread before dealing with this issue. I was told they had to pull credit unless I gave them a certified check. So I gave them a certified check...