Will the Chevrolet Volt be a failure or a success?

I think the major problem with that is Toyota voids your warenty when you convert to phev. CARB also adds giant testing costs if you live in a CARB state. So at least in america Toyota and CARB have been actively working against PHEV conversions of the prius.[/QUOTE]

The Tesla is the only commercially successfully one. There have been a few very low volume releases, and many in texas have done ev conversions, but the government has hurt instead of helped with these. GM crushed their ev1 which was more expensive than the volt. Isn't it time to evaluate the car on its own merrits. Those people are gone and drove the company to bankruptcy.[/QUOTE]

Toyota had a lead and in the land of phev and bev they have surrendered it. That does not mean they can not come back, but they have moved quite slowly when it comes to the obvious merrits of adding a bigger battery and a plug. They claim to have been testing this for at least the last 7 years. I'm not sure what you define as a green car. If you state this, I will be able to understand why you don't consider the volt a green one.

Yes, that is exactly it. In the bad old 80s car makers were saying the bigger the car the more it should cost. Its 2011, and everyone has changed that tune. Is the lexus ct200 worth less than the prius because its smaller? Toyota and I don't think so, so this old thinking bigger is necessarly more expensive shows a lack of understanding of where the car market is. I would much rather have a boxter than a minivan, and don't think its all about space. A mazda 5 is less expensive than a prius, why didn't many on this board buy one? Did the prius fit your needs better instead of the bigger is better mantra?

But really this is about sucess or failure, and by defining failure as not measuring up to the epa's volume definition, It seems like many are just hating on the car. Accolades for the press, sales, positive notes from test drives are part of my measure of sucess, not whether the car fits exactly in toyota's spec sheet. Then again, I can understand that by the car needs to sell more than the prius, be cheaper, and be bigger it may be a failure.

Sales of the prius were also quite low before 2005 and toyota did lose quite a lot of money in those opening years, and had a great deal of Japanese subsidies. In fact, the subsidies reflected really a give away to toyota which already had established the car. The ev subsidies I think go a little too far, but enacted under bush actually are working to create new phev and bev vehicles. I for one don't think taxpayers should tell gm to lose money on the volt, because 1) we will bail them out again and 2) prius chatters think its too much. But that is just me.

 

You are comparing Toyota to Lexus. We were comparing Honda, Toyota to Chevy. Volt is not a Cadillac so don't cross the luxury line and invalidate the comparison.

 

It's super easy to define success or failure. If GM still makes it in 5 or whatever years it's a success. If they don't it's a failure.

 

Wonderful usb. You keep creating new rules, what are your rules? The prius is not a phev, but you seem to think the lithium battery has no value. Then you say the most important thing is size. But it can't be too big or too small. The sun roof isn't considered on the phv prius, because that would be wrong. Well make up your mind. It seems like you just keep making up excuses.

It isn't a success if the press like it. It isn't a success if it sells. It is a failure because the materials are too expensive. Its a failure because it isn't a mini van. What could possibly make it a success? What?

I think you are entitled to your opinion of not liking the volt. But you are not entitled to criticize a volt customer because he does not have your exact taste and movable yard stick.

OK, I'm out of the discussion
Keep making up why the volt is a failure and how 13 is better than 35, and what ever else you want.

 

If it survives for a redesign it is a success. Why is that so hard for you people to understand?

 

With or without another government bailout?

Tom

 

Sorry I was unclear. If GM still makes the Volt in 5+ years and it survives for a redesign, I call it a success. I didn't mean 'it' as in GM. Haha.

 

Well, Austingreen, since we disagree by far, I should then make a change over my previous statements:

Volt, proven both kWh guzzler and fuel guzzer, per EPA, can never be considered a green car from an energy point of view. And regarding emissions, the same applies, because has been tested and its ICE emits pollutants much over some "green" levels. Adding the two, it is now my profound belief that IT IS A FAILURE. And it doesn't have to be less sold than the 1st Prius.

There you have. Probably you'll disagree. But at least I have answered this thread question - "Will it be a failure or a sucess?".

 

Reasons I would not purchase a Volt
#1 Price
#2 It is a Chevy-(history of unreliable vehicle production)
#3 New technology that is bound to have issues
#4 Unimpressed with the vehicle in general

 

I don't make the rules. I was just applying them. You were mixing up compact with mid-size, the standard brands with the luxury brands, trying to justify the extra cost of the Volt. You can't.

Government test results under the same cold weather condition revealed that PHV Prius got 17 miles on battery and Volt got 25 miles.

This means Toyota's 13 miles estimate was conservative and GM's 40 miles estimate was too optimistic. To GM's credit, they did admit (at the last minute) that the range was 25-50 miles.

The fact that PHV Prius got 17 miles from the battery in cold weather (with preconditioning) is a surprising result. That also revealed Volt's preconditioning with heat did not work as expected. Keep in mind that PHV Prius is a prototype and Volt is supposed to be a production version.

All that information should play a role in deciding if Volt will be a failure or a success.

 

There is another angle to this. Even if Volt turns out to be a failure in emission, efficiency and affordability sense, as long as GM looks green and appears to be ahead in electrification game, Volt will be a success.

They just need to display high MPG in the Volt (hide the kWh consumption) and brag the heck out of it and instantly GM has big numbers (big MPG, big battery, big and powerful electric motor, faster EV speed, etc..). If that's enough to turn around their image, Volt will succeed.

That is what I am "fighting" for -- provide a true perspective of the Volt and give Prius (and HSD) the credit it truly deserves. We can't have smoke covering Prius' green shade.

 

This is the very reason owner data is so vague. The devil is in the details.

Accountability for actual results rather than just trophies is why there is so much resistance to higher emission & efficiency standards.
.

 

Interesting spin. In reality, there has been a long-standing goal of delivering a high-volume affordable choice that is extremely clean. GM's current configuration is too expensive for the mainstream and the engine is neither clean nor efficient.

When initial rollout of Volt completes in 2012, there will be a variety of choices on the market. Right from the start, Toyota's approach will cost less, be cleaner, and be more efficient (both gas & electricity). There will also be a selection of no-plug models available. Will GM really be a one-trick pony then still?

It all comes back to the "too little, too slowly" concern. What they deliver appears to look good until you step back to look at the big picture.
.

 

Literally.

 

GM keeps moving the goal posts though.

Remember how forthcoming they actually were about the EV range, finally stating that it would vary from "25 to 50 miles"? Sadly, they waited until the last possible moment to reveal that, rather than telling us when they learned that a whole year prior. But at least they did.

Anywho, GM changed the range statement today. The press-release about the accelerated rollout stated: "For the first 35 miles, the Volt can drive gas- and tailpipe-emissions-free using a full charge of electricity stored in its 16-kWh lithium-ion battery."

What happened to the 25 to 50?

What about the reality that preconditioning runs the engine? It runs for driving warm-up too.

There's no way to determine success when expectations are continually changing like that!
.

 

25 to 50 was probably for damage control. 35 miles is the official EPA figure. It seems they are legally forced to use the EPA figure now.

Preconditioning supposed to eliminate the gas engine from starting in extreme weather conditions. Simply put, it doesn't work on Volt. It works extremely well for PHV Prius. Volt owners are finding out gas engine starting only a few miles after leaving home.

Even worse, the gas engine can run during the preconditioning. It creates a dangerous situation because the owner would leave the Volt plugged in the garage and carbon monoxide poisoning becomes a threat.



I hope GM fixes it because it is a lawsuit waiting to happen and they are 11 months away from all-state roll out.

 

How can a car that gets 37 mpg be considered a guzzler? That is astounding.

And how can a car that gets only 10% lower electricity efficiency then another (the Leaf) which is considered green be an electricity guzzler?

 

Leaving out facts changes the picture greatly!

The Volt engine does start, the heat generated (normally wasted) heats the battery WHILE the power generated moves the car. When the battery is at a nice temperature the engine shuts off. This takes only a minute or two and is a VERY good use of fuel and is something that other electrics can not do.

 

What part of GM's "gas free" promotion supports running the engine?
.

 

How would a car with a gas tank be 100% gas free?