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Fuel injectors gone bad, or so they say!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by wolfeberg, Nov 24, 2010.

  1. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    I just got back from the dealer with our 2005 Prius. I had a CEL come on over the weekend and the codes were P0300, P0303, and P0304. They say they inspected and that I need new injectors for all 4 cylinders. They want $1150 to do this. The injectors are $283 each. They told me I should be using Chevron fuel and adding fuel injector cleaner periodically. I did a search on here and read one post saying the injectors are a pain to change out. I did clean my thottle plate a few months back and ran fuel injector cleaner through one tank after reading about it here. Now I wonder if it is really the fuel or if I clogged the injectors by cleaning them a few months back. This seems very odd to have all 4 injectors go out at once with 74,000 miles on it. I did notice it running rough at start up after the CEL came on though. I assume their inpection ruled out the ignitor wires and such as I have read about on here. I guess I will have to bite the bullet on the repairs now. But maybe others can avoid this by using good fuel and fuel injector cleaner periodically. We did get most of our fuel at discounted rates at Costco and Fred Meyers so they could be right.
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I believe that there is benefit to be gained from sustained usage of a Top Tier gasoline brand (Chevron happens to be one of those.)
    Top Tier Gasoline

    MSRP of the Prius fuel injector is $163 and you can buy them for $124 each, plus shipping here:
    Champion ToyotaWorld

    It is not that hard to replace the fuel injectors. Depressurize the fuel rail. Remove the cowl that runs over the engine for access to the engine valve cover. Then remove the engine wiring harness over the valve cover by disconnecting all wiring harness connectors to the igniters and injectors and unbolting the bolts that hold the harness to the valve cover.

    Remove the valve cover to gain access to the fuel rail, then remove the fuel rail. At this point the injectors can be removed and replaced with new. Good luck.
     
  3. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    I do like doing my own work on the vehicle. How hard is it to depressurize the fuel rail? And then how is it repressurized, is it just the fuel pump that would then repressurize it??
     
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. I suggest that you subscribe to techinfo.toyota.com so that you can obtain repair manual pages that relate to this repair.

    2. If you had a Classic, it would be very easy to depressurize the fuel rail as you would just unplug the Circuit Opening relay while the Prius was READY, which would turn off the fuel pump and cut off the fuel supply. Hence, the engine would consume the remaining fuel in the fuel line until the pressure had dropped to the point where the injectors no longer would inject, then the engine would stall.

    3. However, 2G has a fancy relay module that contains multiple relays including the Circuit Opening relay. The repair manual suggests removing the rear seat cushion, then disconnecting the fuel pump wiring harness. Then make the Prius READY and let the engine run until it stalls. As an alternative, you would need to find the fuse providing power to the fuel pump and pull it. <I don't have access to the wiring diagram at this moment, so you'll have to look that up as well when you subscribe to techinfo.>

    4. The fuel rail is automatically pressurized the next time you make the Prius READY, as the fuel pump will establish a minimum pressure of 44-50 psi.
     
  5. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    Hey thanks Patrick. I appreciate the feedback. Not sure if I want to tackle it or not but will think more about it. Jerry
     
  6. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    If all three codes came on about the same time, your stealership is trying to do a walletectomy on you. His inflated injector price is another clue.

    Those codes are semi universal codes for cylinders misfiring, injectors don't suddenly die in multiple cylinders at the same time.

    I believe (but check) the codes mean

    P0300 multiple cylinder misfire
    P0303 Cyl 3 misfire
    P0304 Cyl 4 misfire.
    http://www.ricksfreeautorepairadvic...305-p0306-p0307-p0308-p0309-p0310-p0311-p0312

    More likely you have a fuel pump, emissions system or ignition system problem. Someone here should be able to tell you if the diagnostic system will throw a code for fuel pressure, if it will, then your fuel pressure is probably OK because you didn't get a code for that. I think you would get
    Code:
    
    [LIST]
    [*]P0087 Fuel Rail/System Pressure - Too Low
    [*]0r
    [*]P0088 Fuel Rail/System Pressure - Too High
    [/LIST]
    
    if your pressure were seriously off either way

    It sounds more like an ignition or emissions controls problem. Is there anything in the ignition system that could cause 3 and 4 to start misfiring at the same time.

    A good share of trouble codes are generic. Plug them into Google and you will get clues.
     
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  7. northwichita

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    hobbit has a description on a cutoff for the fuel pump ; 04-09

    http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/nosquirt/

    inserting a cutoff switch in the lead to the electric fuel pump is even simpler. This describes a surprisingly easy method and location to install one in the '04 - '09 2nd-generation car.

    and
    There is no dedicated fuel-pump fuse, unlike that found in many other cars; the pump simply feeds off the 15A AM2 supply.

    Also about the question -I had a CEL come on over the weekend-, If the engine runs okay other than startup , I would try running some good injector cleaner again, perhaps your current tank of gas is the problem.
     
  8. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Is it always rough at startup? How many times has the CEL come on? Every time after clearing the code?

    It just seems awfully strange. There's an ancient TSB for 04-05, basically water comes through the cowl and causes one or more cylinders to misfire and perhaps damages the ignition coil. Actually, Patrick Wong posted it a few years ago: http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...g/45550-ignition-coil-getting-burned-out.html Also possible that the wiper tray drain is plugged and is also causing excess water to enter the engine compartment. Anyways, I'm suspicious of you needing new injectors. I've run 150,000 miles at 25 mpg in a 2004 RAV4 (same injectors as your Prius) using only the cheapest gas and have had zero fuel/ignition problems. If in doubt, pull the injectors and mail them off to be ultrasonically cleaned and flow tested.
     
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  9. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    It's doesn't always run rough at start up, just occasional. The CEL has not come back on since they turned it off 3 days ago. I did put a bottle of chevron fuel injector cleaner in it in hopes of that helping. I will put it in more religiously now.

    I do still wonder if I caused some of the problems by cleaning the throttle plate a few months back. I did this following the advice of a thread on this site. I also noticed some oil down at bottom of the air intake while cleaning the throttle plate and had read that this can happen if the oil level is over full or too close to full. I have always been very careful to not get the oil over full. But then it does have an oil sheen down below the throttle plate now even though my oil level is below full. So that could be the cause as well. If that is the case then it seems like it would continue to be a problem even if I do replace or get the injectors cleaned out a bit. I wonder how many people look down inside the air intake to see if there is oil there. Maybe it is more normal than not I don't know but I do wonder if trying to clean it out is worse than letting it be. My trouble started a few months after trying to clean things up...I am going to leave it alone and run some injector cleaner though it and see if/when the CEL comes back on for now.
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Don't worry about the oil "sheen" at the bottom of the throttle body. That is normal.

    Occasional use of fuel injector cleaner is OK, but you should not overdo that either. It wouldn't hurt for you to buy top tier fuel for a while.

    You might want to remove and inspect the spark plug igniters for cyls 3 and 4 (the two that are closest to the inverter) to assure yourself that they are in good physical condition (no cracking or burn marks on the plastic body.) Look for rust stains which would show that water had entered the spark plug well. If there are any problems, replace the igniters and that will probably take care of the misfire DTC. Good luck.
     
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  11. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    The goodnews/badnews is that you learned something about your dealer.
     
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  12. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    It is possible to damage the MAF sensor while cleaning the throttle plate, and that could cause such weirdness. I don't know how to test for that specifically.

    If you have trouble again, if at all possible take it to a different dealer.
     
  13. Troyroy

    Troyroy Member

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  14. boppo

    boppo Active Member

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  15. pEEf

    pEEf Engineer - EV nut

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    I agree, do not pay the Stealer for this! It could simply be a bad tank of fuel. Continue driving normally and see if you get another code set after a fresh tank (and different brand) of fuel.

    As Patrick said, Oil in the Intake is a normal artifact of the PCV system, it will not hurt anything.

    Be careful using cleaning fluids on parts like the Throttle body. I recommend you take the TB off while cleaning so excess fluid doesn't enter the engine. I've seen things like this destroy oxygen sensors and catalyst systems.
     
  16. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    I did check all the igniters and replaced all 4 spark plugs since I had the plugs on hand and was going to do it at 100k anyway. All igniters, connections and plugs did look good though. It still seems to run rough and our mileage has dropped from the mid 40's (this has been normal during our winter temps here) to the mid 30's since the CEL came on. It seemed to drop very suddenly. I didn't even notice it until we brought it home from the dealer which was only 3 days after the CEL came on. The CEL has still not come back on and I am hoping that the fuel injector cleaner and some Chevron premium fuel will help but not too confident at this point. I did get a call from a company hired by the dealer to follow up to see how we liked their service. I told them I felt rushed and did not get answers to questions. The dealer is suppose to call me to follow up so maybe I can find out why they are so sure all 4 injectors need replaced.
     
  17. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    Oh yea, forgot to mention that I also checked the MAF and the bulb was black on one side bot not to bad on the other. I didn't have any special stuff to clean it so I put it back without touching it but the connetions looked good. I will probably get whatever I need to clean it soon.
     
  18. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. Yes, the MAF sensor needs to be cleaned now. You can buy the correct cleaner at discount auto parts stores.

    2. If the CEL comes back on, I would suggest replacing the fuel injectors for cyls 3 and 4 since those were the cyls with the misfire.
     
  19. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Clean it correctly and your problem will most likely be over. See Patrick Wong's recent excellent post on the subject:
    http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...-airflow-sensor-instructions.html#post1218678
     
  20. wolfeberg

    wolfeberg Appreciative Member at large

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    So the good news is that after cleaning the MAF sensor the mpg went back to normal or maybe even a bit better. The bad news is that my CEL came back on before I was able to clean the sensor. I had driven the car about 150 miles since the dealer turned off the CEL. I also just put the first full tank of premium fuel in it since using the fuel injector additive. I would like to see how this all works before taking it into a different repair shop. I will try to avoid taking it back to the dealer if I can find another shop that works on Prius'. Does anyone know of a way to turn off the CEL without taking it to someone with the software to do it? I have heard that some vehicles allow you to turn off the CEL by disconnecting the battery for 10-15 min. but it seems like I read on here somewhere that it doesn't work on Prius'. Any other ideas before I take it back in someplace to have the codes downloaded again and CEL turned off? I don't want to do damage to the engine but it does seem like it's worth a try to see how things may change now with the recent changes and turn of events.