Leaf C02 versus Prius C02

<<ahem>>

A bullet point is neither subtle, forward thinking, or hidden. The Volt fan dullards have bought this line hook, line, and sinker.

 

My point was not that I will generate less CO2 in a BEV or PHEV than a prius, it was that that issue is of extremely minor importance compared to other issues. I'll spell it out directly. Put 10 million cars on the road that generate 0 CO2 for 10 years and have them replace SUVs. No climate model that is scientifically acceptable has that changing the earth's temperature even 0.1 degrees. If we don't start converting though, oil prices will go up, and environmental damage from oil will also go up, and the economy will suffer. Oil use and pollutants are far more important to the discussion than CO2. Will the great majority of people buying a BEV reduce their carbon foot print, of course they will, but not by a big enough amount to affect global climate. I may have obscured the basic facts in your mind, because I believe the argument is about an unimportant matter. The labeling of 0 emissions is misleading. I agree with that point, but the euro labels with CO2 on them putting it above particulate polution are also misleading.

But this is part of the misleading label, it does not show all the polution for an ice, why would you expect it to show all the greenhouse gasses for a BEV? MMS and EPA need to do a better job, even though they do a better job currently than the canadians or nigerians it is not nearly good enough.

Hold on there a second. The SO2, NOx are capped. There is also a mercury cap, although I'm not sure if this is in effect with court cases. The scrubbers mandated for other coal and NG pollutants are also removing some of the mercury. Coal, natural gas, wind, sun aren't really putting out any more health affecting pollutants when you add cars to the grid. CO2 is a different matter, and like mercury it is global. Unlike mercury it does not cause health problems unless locally very high levels are present. The Leaf is mislabeled, but I think this carbon dioxide confusion is the cause. I agree the Leaf should not be advertising or saying no pollutants. It is much easier cleaning up power plants than old cars on the road though, so move the power source to electricity does make the problems more solvable.

Well my only problem with that is the use of the term significantly. I ran 9 miles before work and emitted CO2. Would I have emmited a significantly less amount if I hadn't run?

Well if you frame the argument in a totally rediculous way, sure. But I'm more concerned about getting more people into efficient - less gas - cars. That is about growing the market. If all you have is the prius, you will have fewer of these and although not significant IMHO more GHG. It is not a 0 sum game, thinking that it is gives poor reasoning. Cleaing the grid should be done quite independantly from transportation. I also do not like the demonizing of coal, when you think globally you must realize that coal is part of our energy future. It can be made cleaner, and technology is being developed to even sequester carbon. On my local grid wind and biogas are replacing coal, and this is the best direction locally.

Yes. Would you prefer mideast oil, and the future economic blackmail and scarcity of resource. You are providing a false choice. Fossil fuel is not created equal. You should be concerned about cleaning up your grid with or without EVs. The difference from this Texan's perspective is you are whining about what you can't do, and your can't do attitude is proposing we stay with the status quo. All that money not being shipped overseas or not in programs to convert coal to gas for the coming crisis could be used by americans. Some of it might even be used in Virginia for sequestration or renewables.

Plant a tree. Drive less. Or you can be a carter and wear a sweater instead of being comfortable. Calculate how much of an impact that difference would make over the life of the car. Multiply that by the number of cars that would make that choice to be evs. Now how important is it?

 

This argument can be applied equally well to whatever solution you care to propose. And it is why *only* carbon taxation or carbon cap will make a difference to the the earth's climate.

AGW is not minor, that statement makes you look ridiculous.

 

Thank you for posting that, its quite useful.

One does have to remember however that charging an EV at night is going to make the data from that site not entirely accurate. Nuclear plants basically run as much as possible 24/7 so at night so in an area like mine where nuclear is already one third of the average, charging at night is going to be more then half nuclear.

As wind power grows, EV's will probably be able to turn on charging to soak up the extra power and stop charging when there is a shortage, adding to the efficiency of the grid. I admit this is years away still.

 

That is not what I said. I said that EV contribution to GHG emissions does not matter much. I'm trying to point out there is a 800 lb gorrilla and an elephant in the room, and co2 in this discussion is a gnat. Let me try math one more time. Assuming your figures for the US and every BEV displaced a prius and they drive 15,000 miles per year we get 0.51 tons more CO2 from the BEV per year. There are over 30,000 megatons of CO2 equivallent ghg produced every year. That means to raise the ghg production level 0.1% you need 59 million of these replacing prii. Given that there are only about 2 million prii world wide and most of the early markets for BEVs are in cities that pollute less, I do not think waiting for a greener nation wide grid before EV sales is productive.

You can check epa or other environmental websites of your choice. Changing to cf is easy and fairly painless. I don't see much of a downside. The impact though is greatly overestimated. The amount GHG need to be reduced to make an impact is often ignored.

And I do agree with that point. Greening the grid is also important independent of transportation use.

Have a good thanksgiving.

 

Someday that may be true. But right now, someone switching from a Prius to a Leaf should not be considered "the average US resident". Many probably are taking into account the issues discussed here.

 

You misunderstand Chogan's statement. He is saying that most Prius in the US emit less GHG that a Volt would in the same hands.

 

Start with a Prius, and then upgrade your home for fuel efficiency with the money saved by not buying an EV.

That can easily be a 50-75% reduction in family GHG emissions.

 

So what we've determined here is that in a frozen moment in time (uh... now) that if we compare the tailpipe AND upstream Co2 emissions of grid-charged EV with only the tailpipe emissions of a Prius, that the Prius produces less Co2.

Factual, yes. Relevant to our transportation future? Not really.

As making gasoline gets dirtier, grid power gets cleaner. EVs allow fuel to be made at home. Source and pollution to be controlled completely. Where do you want your money going? Staying in your pocket so you can buy local? Or sending the majority of it out of our economy for oil?

If Co2 is the only worry, then we at least need a level playing field.. and start looking at the damage that'll be created as oil gets harder and harder to extract. We need to look upstream, not just tailpipe emissions. And we need to look upstream in the *future* - not just what things look like today. Let's not be as myopic as the car industry.

The gas car drivers laugh off the Prius and show all kinds of ways that it isn't really cleaner than a normal gas car. The Prius drivers laugh off the EVs and show all kinds of ways that they aren't really cleaner than a Prius. The EV drivers... well, they need to ride their bikes more.

 

There is a huge amount of GHG reductions that can be done in most homes. We should be doing more here then we are in the USA.

Almost everyone should be running a tankless water heater, and have an well insulated house. I doubt they do!

 

So who makes a solar tankless water heater?

 

....assuming solar hot water is not viable.

 

Absolutely! The report from Department of Energy agrees with that as well. I don't understand why EPA decided to report zero emission.

 

EVs do have advantages but not as much as what's being hyped. I do support a well designed EV like the Leaf.

 

At the risk of beating this to death... I dare say that Prius drivers are nowhere near "average US residents." Leaf drivers will be even further form that average. The "average" EV driver in the US today has solar panels that supply electricity to his home. Owning an EV makes you WAY more likely to care about your energy supply, and to severely modify it's footprint.

So certainly a case can be made for your viewpoint that joe sixpack will burn more coal in an EV than in a Prius. But the reality shows something quite different. Folks who want EVs also want a lower carbon footprint - and often go to great lengths to achieve that goal. Something that CAN be done with an EV, and can't be done with a gasoline car like the Prius.

I have Prius drivers telling me that my bicycle pollutes more than a Prius. I have Prius drivers telling me that my EV pollutes more than a Prius and I have gasoline drivers telling me that my Prius pollutes more than a Hummer.

I agree that we all need to do the proper calulation for ourselves. I don't believe that we can assume any sort of "average driver" here. By far, the most polluting vehicle in my stable of seven vehicles is my Prius. More polluting by any metric. But hey, that's just me - your average American bicycle-riding, EV-driving, Prius-loving driver.

 

Darelldd,

Does EV ownership *cause* environmentalism ? I doubt it. More likely the other way around. This is important because EVs in the hands of Joe America is IMO very unlikely to lead to home PV arrays, or energy conservation.

I suggest caution in extrapolating the habits and opinions of a couple hundred EV nuts to the general population -- or even whatever slice of 2% you want.

That said, I am an example of your viewpoint: if my neighborhood lets me put up PV, I will have every intent to buy an EV in 2012. Without PV, even though I like EVs a lot, I will not buy one. And conversely, if an EV market was not burgeoning in 2012, I would not be very interested in PV.

How many people are like me ? I estimate 50 - 100k in the US. Not a small number to generate internet noise, but not exactly a lucrative business case for an EV manufacturer.

 

Every step away from oil brings out users of the older technology screaming at the top of their lungs that the new technology is actually a step backwards. Hummer-drivers claim their vehicle is "cleaner" than a Prius, and now we are seeing Prius drivers claiming their car is "cleaner" than an EV.

I think what we are seeing is guilt giving rise to rage, leading to a panicked mental clawing for justification for sticking with their outdated machinery.

As Darell so rightly points out, you cannot plan for the future with a snapshot of the present. And it is unwise to judge two competing technologies based solely on one narrow slice of the picture.

As Darell also points out, the grid is getting cleaner with advances in technology and with new wind and solar power coming on line, while gasoline production is getting dirtier as we are forced into using lower and lower grades of oil, and even tar, to make the stuff. And every dollar we send overseas for oil (mostly to countries that don't like us!) is a dollar not available for putting up more PVs and wind turbines. So when you buy gasoline, you are not only putting that gasoline's carbon into the air, you are also delaying ever further the construction of clean energy infrastructure here at home.

I remember when Prius drivers were insisting that by buying a Prius, they were pushing forward the technology of tomorrow. Well, now the Prius is the technology of today. People who buy the Leaf (or other EVs) are now the ones pushing forward the technology of tomorrow, and by being early adopters, are helping to create the market for sustainable transportation.

 

Sorry, this is fuzzy thinking. It is equally true that every dollar spent on dirty EV is a dollar unavailable for cleaning up the grid. I will also point out that a gallon of petrol "saved" by you is not one less gallon of petrol bought by America.

The transition of the US to a clean, independent energy society is complicated with lots of unintended consequences along the way. Simplistic bullet points like "EV = a Clean independent America!" is nice for a GM Volt commercial, but it is mostly bullshit.

 

Look at this table from Tesla:

It appears to show that WtW, Tesla uses half the energy as a Prius, but note a couple of things:

1. The source fuel for the Tesla is assumed to be 100% NG;
2. The tesla is assumed to consume 110 wh/km

Correct those two unrealistic assumptions, and the EV is worse than the Prius.