Another Denier Wakes up and smells the coffee,,

How about we all ask... that should get His attention don't you think?

He has already blessed us with the knowledge (in many of the things mentioned), we just need to implement it.

 

How about not pigeon-holing all "Christians". Who made James Watt the spokesperson for Christians anyway? Jesus Christ is the spokesperson for Christians period.

 

I was raised in an atheist household where I was taught that generosity, charity, and volunteerism are important.

If I may play devil's advocate... eeerrrm, well, god's advocate, for a moment: It is said by believers that god answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is "No."

Maybe god views us the way we view cockroaches, and sees our rape of the environment as speeding our own demise, and therefore a good thing.

Actually, far more Christians follow Paul than Jesus. Modern Christianity, in the majority of cases is a cult of personality that "believes" that Jesus was the christ, but follows the precepts of Paul rather than those of Jesus.

There are a few radical Catholics, and perhaps a few radical Protestants, who live in voluntary poverty and dedicate their entire life, 24/7 to service to the poor, and the rejection of wealth, as demanded by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. But such people are very few. Most Christians take to heart the teachings of Paul, who said that as long as you believe, you can get away without doing any of the stuff Jesus demanded.

Pauline Christianity really has very little to do with Jesus, except to "believe" in him. And even people who claim to follow his teachings, reject all the ones they view as "impractical." I've actually had evangelical Christians tell me that the poverty stuff was "impractical," and therefore could be safely ignored. I've got news for them: That stuff was just as "impractical" when Jesus was saying it, Jesus was never interested in what was "practical" in this world. He believed that the Kingdom of god was coming in his own generation (he got that one wrong!) and one had to reject all "practicality."

When none of that came to pass, Pauline Christianity caught on as an alternative: Forget everything Jesus taught, but "believe" in him and he would "save" you.

Paul is the spokesman for Christianity today. Not Jesus.

 

i can't answer that, but i don't really think about end times. i try to live as if Jesus is coming back tomorrow. what will he say to me? it's just the way i am. before, i didn't care. now, it's all i think about. and still, it's not easy. i'm constantly thinking about what i want, and not what others need.
but consider this, you judge Christians by the ones you see in public life. (i assume) sara palin, president obama, some nutcase evangelist on t.v., but there are millions out there toiling in anonymity. habitat for humanity, jimmy carter, salvation army. we all see what we want to see. my partner is a liberal democrat. drives an acura mdx, thinks i'm crazy driving a prius. we don't pay for gas, why should we care? he has never even thought about recycling, solar panels, even turning off a light in a room he's not in. but we both know that all liberal democrats are not like him, don't we?

 

Where, when, how? At most I ever said is that I was skeptical.

Just to add a bit... one of the things that smacked me was watching the Summer Olympics in Beijing. Supposedly they idled some of the factories to help reduce the pollution for the games!!! Good grief if that was the case, what is it normally like. Watching the outdoor sessions was almost impossible... you couldn't hardly see the participants. They have some serious problems over there. If anyone thinks that putting that amount of crap in our skies is got is got a screw loose.

 

I got to thinking today that our two "groups" here have something in common. We are both trying to save mankind from himself. One environmentally and one spiritually. Those are big tasks that both feel passionately about. That passion often leads to extreme measures that others often perceive as fanaticism.

I remember some of the first posts I saw of Icarus's... wow, what a nut job. I got to thinking about what he thinks of my posts...,,,

 

we've heard this before daniel, but i disagree. paul said if you believe that Jesus is the messiah, you will live by His precepts. i think your mistaken and need to re read the scriptures.

 

i also was raised in an atheist household and was taught to get a good education, work hard and do better than your parents did. (monetarily)
i've seen your rant on pauline Christianity, i believe you've got it all wrong. i think you need to reread the scriptures. paul reenforced everything Jesus said. and he said that if you believe in Jesus, you will want to follow his precepts. so, the question begs, do you really believe?

 

Interesting question. Let me propose three people:

The first says "all I care about is me, and what I want."
The second says "I never thought about that stuff."
The third says "god tells me to rape the earth."

Who is the most incorrigible and dangerous ?

 

Both my reading of the N.T. and my study of early Christian history give me to feel that Paul invented, out of whole cloth, a cult of personality that had little to do with Jesus.

However, passing over this for the moment to your point that if people really believed in Jesus they would want to follow his precepts:

I talk to Christians all the time who gloss over that by saying, "Oh, I'd LIKE to follow Jesus's teachings, but we are all sinners and nobody but Jesus is perfect, and as long as we BELIEVE, we'll be forgiven our imperfections."

By "imperfections" they mean completely disregarding everything Jesus taught, and only following Paul's number one commandment, to "believe" that Jesus was the christ. In other words, even if Paul did say that if you believe you will act accordingly, he also provided a loophole by saying that belief was the bottom line.

I used to say all the time, for exactly the reason you cite (people's true beliefs show in their actions) that there really aren't any Christians. Because anybody who truly believed in Jesus would sell all their possessions and give the money to the poor. I stopped saying this for two reasons:

1. I learned that there are indeed a few people who do just that, for example in the Catholic Worker movement and in the liberation theology movement. And

2. An understanding that "Christianity" is not the aggregate of the teachings of Jesus, but rather a cult of personality that worships Jesus as the christ but follows a dogma invented after his death, largely by Paul, but refined by two thousand years of church hierarchy and splintered into multiple different religions by centuries of schisms.

 

Jesus never said, unless you are perfect, you will not enter heaven. why do you think He allowed himself to be hung on a cross? for the forgiveness of sins. there is a differentiation between constantly sinning intentionally, and constantly trying not to sin. there is a difference between great sin and small sin. God knows we're not perfect, that's why he sent his son to die for us. not to make us perfect right away but to perfect us over time eto prepare us for heaven. i'm not an expert (if there is one) i'm still learning and some of your points are valid. but i do think you miss the point. by their fruit you will know them. how else do you judge people? as for paul, he had an supernatural experience with Jesus and his life was changed forever. i don't see how he changed the message. we may need a separate thread for this discussion, it probably could go on forever, but it's facinating isn't it?

 

That's another thing that pisses me off about Christianity.

Guy number one can murder, rape, pillage, do whatever he wants. However, he has an "I heart Jesus" t-shirt so he gets a free pass to Heaven.

Guy number two dedicates his life to healing the sick, eliminating poverty, cleaning the environment, etc. etc. The worst thing he ever did was he once went two minutes over in the parking meter. Still, he's not a Christian so it's eternal suffering for him, baby!

Sometimes I wish there was a God so I could picture him rolling his eyes at this hypocrisy.

 

Not true, the guy only gets a free pass if the above was done for the grace of god.
;-)

 

OK, technically it's not a free pass. All he has to do is say "Forgive me, Jesus" and Jesus says "Okey dokey!" then it's off to molesting kids again.

 

I'm not asking people to be "perfect." I'm pointing out that the vast majority of Christians ignore everything Jesus taught. They flush the entire Sermon on the Mount right down the toilet, saying "It's not practical." They claim Jesus was "perfect" but they violate every single one of his commandments, not just occasionally in a weak moment, but every single day of their life, day in and day out. And they not only routinely violate every one of his commandments, but they reject the whole of his teaching as "impractical."

They are mean and petty toward their neighbor, they are selfish (tax revolt, anybody??? What happened to "Render unto Caesar..."?) They both practice and preach racism and xenophobia and homophobia. They are wasteful and money-grubbing and petty.

And then they say, "I admit I'm not perfect, but Jesus will forgive me because I believe in him."

PLEASE NOTE: I am not criticizing Christians for being the same as all other humans. I am criticizing the irrational belief system which says Jesus was god and if you don't believe in him god loves you so much he will torture you for all eternity.

We cannot know whether or not there is a creator. But torturing people for all eternity is NOT what "love" is. Therefore, if god is love, then there's no hell. In fact, if god is love, then the universalists have it right and everybody goes to heaven and this life is just a practical joke. You can't have it both ways: IF there is a god, then either EVERYONE goes to heaven, or god is NOT love. (I'll tell you, though, if I was god, I would not love a sniveling, petty, violent species that was doing its damnedest to destroy my creation out of pure greed. )

 

Oooh this is getting good. What do you think the chance of us being able to start our own dedicated thread on this subject is?

 

I would suggest "Fred's House of the Bit Bucket", where words go in, but they don't come out.

Tom