oh dear... ABG writer gets 26.1 mpg in CS mode.

Prius was compared to a non-hybrid mid-size 25 MPG car. The Volt should be compared to a non-hybrid compact 35 MPG car.

I have no issue with fossil fuel shifting EV miles as long as it is being tracked and acknowledged. The issue we are seeing with Volt owners is that they are keeping track of only one of the power source they use (gasoline). Majority of the power comes from electricity and they are simply ignoring it as if it came out of thin air.

There are two places to track the electricity going into it.

1) Charger. Gas pump reports exactly how many gallons you pump into the gas tank. Why doesn't the electricity charger report the same in kWh?

2) Car. The car should shows power consumption clearly. If it uses two power sources, it needs to show the breakdown. The Volt shows MPG (with electric miles included). Why doesn't it show kWh/100mi or Miles Per kWh (with gas miles included) as well?

 

I don't really want to be in the position to be the defender of the volt. IMHO they made a poor choice of engine, but this does not make it a bad car, or an inefficient car.

If you look at the reports, and not just this poor one out of context, the volt's combined milage beats every toyota car other than the prius in CS mode. This includes the yaris, corola, and Toyota camery
hybrid. Do you think these all have terrible MPG? Or are you just repeating some talking points without thinking about them?

As will every other car except some turbo diesels. Then again is the prius a bad car since at high speeds a turbo diesel has been tested with higher mpg. If you primarily are buying it for long trips, and do these weekly its an inappropriate car. This argument is hollow.

The marketing folks think otherwise as it is a hassle renting a car, but sure a tesla plus rental cars would be more fun. A leaf and rental car instead of a prius too. But this is not the the choice of many, and how many gallons of gas will you really save. You can lease a volt and rent a car too. Both leaf and volt are $350/mo lease. If you want to buy the volt is not a good choice. If you are leasing having the option to drive further is a benefit. IMHO PHEVs will vastly outsell BEVs.

Not a new concept. The concept was there and talked about when carb and the auto companies killed the EV mandate. Many were surprised it took so long. As for heavy, its about the same weight as the FFH. It isn't heavy like a LLS or LRX hybrid. Nor is it a lousy ICE car, unless all toyotas but the prius are lousy ice cars. It will not be the choice for many, but it is good to have choices.

 

I don't really have a problem with volt owners, it just started shipping. The reports do report charge. As I said in previous points, I agree it should be tracked. My problem is only looking at CS mileage and pretending the car will always be empty electrically.

There are two places to track the electricity going into it.

As our reviews have done with phv prius, reviewers had to add a killowatt or other external meter. The reports are a fully empty battery takes about 11kwh of electricity from a plug. I believe the chargers here will be individually metered, but this is about the utility and charger picked. I'm all for more gauges as long as they are user configurable. The Leaf marketing people seem to be the ones pushing electricity as ZEV, and I don't like this type of marketing from anyone. EPA needs to get their act together and set a labeling standard.

 

GM is making a big deal about the CS mode which is supposed to be the selling point. Here is a piece from their ad:

This is America, man. Home of the highway, last-minute detours and spontaneous acts of freedom. We're wanderers, wayfarers, even nomads. So doesn't it just make sense that we build an electric car that goes far? Really far.​

They should include highway MPG in CS mode like their other Ads. It would be funny.

I don't think neither the Volt or it's charger tell you how much electricity going into the car. $20 Kill-A-Watt does it so why was it not included? None of the review I have seen mention/complain about it, as if it is perfectly ok to track electricity usage from the utility bill. I think it was purposely done so the owner only focusing on the gas usage with the big MPG displayed on the screen.

 

My understanding is:

the kilowatt device doesn't work on 240v chargers,
the OnStar system will give you a monthly kwh charging usage,
in early reports, CAB members are getting about 40mpg in C/S mode.

 

I don't get your point or which economic theory you are trying to use. The prius's effect on oil usage is very small because it is such a small percentage of cars on the road. From a marketing point of view it is easy understand why the prius will not displace a large percentage of vehicles.

My graduate level economics courses were taken as part of my MBA at the University of Texas at Austin. When I mentioned "little" for my niece it wasn't to imply short, she is too young to attend university. The American University system is the best in the world. Those graduating from the top institutions are not dumbed down, or worse in any way than previous generations, in many ways they are better. In recent times many more people are going to university that would not have in the past. There are more marginal students attending, and this is a good thing not an indictment of the system. You do not need to understand QE2 or other complex economics to understand oil imports versus vehicle mix.

 

I'm not sure those highway ads are really effective for their other cars. Weren't you and other prius chat members complaining about them. I also do not think the volt does not die when the battery is empty is telling people it gets great CS milege. That was their bad CEO that has been gone for well over a year.

Utilities here will have separate metering for ev's and a lower charge for the electricity, so yes it can be tracted. The Volt as mentioned takes account of its energy usage. What will not be shown from the volt alone is losses in charging, but I'm sure that number will be made public.

So you don't like an add, so you are harping on a false and misleading argument. Why not just say you don't like the ad? A dishonest argument to counter a supposed dishonest argument is not really appropriate.

Peace

 

I noticed

I am pointing out the reasonably (I thought) well known relationships in a market economy between price, supply, and demand; and to a lesser extent elasticity.

Simply, petrol not used by an EV user is going to be consumed elsewhere.

 

Ah. No that does not apply. The assumption requires good information, free market, and restriction of the market to a single economy. The first requirement is met with the oil markets. The second requirement is not met, oil is controlled by OPEC which has near monopoly power, and the US government subsidizes oil use. So even if the us was the only market substituting electricity for oil would drop oil consumption. The third condition is also not met, substituting electricity in the US will result in higher demand outside the united states. Deutch banks analysts predict oil prices to double by 2016, then decrease with lower consumption in the US. Their key reasoning is beginning penetration of BEV and PHEVs along with more efficient cars from the rising cafe standards. Other analysts have other predictions.

 

telmo,
I don't have to Google anything. I know diesel has more energy per gallon.

The point I was trying to make is that your measure of horrible mileage is not valid. If you put the prius through the same testing as they did to the volt it will also get lower mileage, an efficient diesel will get better mileage. Numerous tests and articles, even a bmw 5 series beating a prius. This does not make the prius a bad car, it makes the metric a poor metric. If driven as it likely will be, 15000 miles per year or less, the volt will get the bulk of its energy from electricity, and when in CS mode will outperform all of the toyotas except the prius. How is that horrible?

 

Why did CARB completely ignore the Volt's EV capabilities? Same coin, different side, except CARB is a regulating body, and not a single individual on the web.

Five years ago, that was an argument against buying a hybrid.

 

I am not defending CARB but simply stating what I think they did.

CARB needs to regulate air due to SMOG emission issue that China and other developing countries are now facing. California faced the same problem about 30 years ago. If a vehicle has a tailpipe, CARB will test it. In order to test the tailpipe pollution, the gas engine needs to be running.

CARB has no control over if or how long the owner will charge from the plug. CARB can't take account of every owner's terrain as Volt can activate the gas engine with the mountain mode before the battery runs low. The primary power source in the Volt is gasoline. The usable energy in the gas tank is about 9x more than the energy in the battery pack.

If you are referring to the fact that Volt doesn't qualify in the HOV lane due to ULEV emission, that's a different story. I believe California DMV made that rule. They use CARB emission rating to designate qualified vehicles. It appears that CDMV and CARB needs to open discussion to take the EV miles into account.

 

Ok, let's check what this article says in compilation of multiple tests to the Volt...
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gm_volt]Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
I calculated an average, and it stands for...6.4L/100km...36,7MPG. Wrong metric?
I know a couple of 5 seat-Toyotas that can outperform that, not even hybrids.

We, consumers, are not asking a miracle, but surely expecting much more, that is my point since I started joining this thread. Sorry if I make it so personal, but I believe there is a wrong perception over this car. And my "moto" is not to hide anything from anyone. GM did the opposite, marketing its product as a new breakthrough, and the top of design.

Maybe the "problem" of the Volt is the same that is happening to Honda, HSD technique is unbeatable when in FE is called for. And proven solid/reliable also.

Then again, most consumers don't even look at it, that's why Prius is widely spread but not a best-seller against other ICE vehicles. GM may have here a good public! But not counting me on, and from what I said before.

 

Let's see, the epa for the best gasoline toyota is the yaris with combined mileage of 32. I don't know what the volt will end up, but lets go with your 36, the last I checked 36 was bigger than 32. a cruze eco chevy will do 42 on the highway but average in the city and we don't know whether cs volt or cruze wins. Now what if you remember to plug the volt in? Which toyota are you thinking of?

Lutz was a idiot. I agree, but I am not a gm fan. No one in the immediate family has even owned a gm. I think you are telegraphing some perceptions that are not real though. The only place i see miracle and volt put together are from volt haters.

Any analysis of the drivetrain makes it obvious that gm made a poor choice of engine and could have easily made it a more efficient and more powerful car. They didn't. But it still is more efficient even in CS mode than all the Toyotas but the prius even with a retarded engine choice. The Prius beats it if you drive a lot more than you plug it in. My guess is most owners will remember to plug it in though and not be the uber mileage drivers most straw man cases are made for.

GM and toyota are both planning to sell about the same number of phev's, the volt gets out of the gate a year and a half before the phv prius. This may give gm good insight to improve on it, or they could go back to their old ways. I hope its a success.

 

European ratings...
Toyota Corolla Sedan 1.6 Valvematic is rated 6.4L/100km.
Auris 1.33, Corolla 1.33dualVVTi 5.7L/100km (41.2MPG).
All come with "start-stop".

 

Now I see the problem. The volt will also get a much higher rating in the european tests, I would not be surprised to see 50mpg on those cycles. Hopefully we will soon have epa regulations and real numbers, but the volt in epa cycles should be in the mid to high 30s, in European cycles in the low to high 40s. The Japanese cycle is so screwed up that I would not be suprised if the volt scored in the 80s.

 

Unfortunetly, for those of us interested in a small economical, efficient car, the smallest engine available in the US Corolla is the 1.8L. That is how it is with most makes here. It was different in the past, and it appears to changing.

The only start-stop system I'm aware of being offered here was GM's BAS hybrid. With the amount vehicles GM sells, it would have improved this countries fleet mpg average as a standard feature. But they called it a hybrid and charged extra for it. When it didn't give hybrid performance, it failed.

The marketing blowhards have either learned their lesson or were fired, because I think the system is back without any mention of hybrid in the name.

 

You can't compare a Euro mpg with an American one. The Volt rated in Europe would have a higher mpg then 37! It would still beat those cars.

Lets face it, 37mpg is a disappointment for the Volt. I was expecting 42+ mpg. That was not the deal killer for me and the Volt.... the price was. Used as a Volt should be (plugged in daily, 40 mile or less commute) the Volt is doing exactly what it should be.... cutting down on gas usage. The owner has now averaged 155mpg.

Chevrolet Volt Driving Log | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site

 

If my understanding is correct, the EPA has announced a three tiered fuel consumption expectation for the Volt. Anyone see that? I think it was 37mpg gas only; 60 something as a mid tier, and 99 mpg for all EV operation.