Glad I did not TDI

Here, diesel is 5 cents a litre cheaper than gasoline. That changes on a monthly basis, it will sometimes be the same price, sometimes a bit cheaper

The days of huge discounts on diesel appear over

In the EU, fuel economy is rated in litres per 100km, like it is in Canada. When they convert to MPG, they use miles per IMPERIAL gallon, not miles per US gallon

Imperial Gallon = 4.54 litres
US Gallon = 3.78 litres

There is little difference now comparing similar sized motors. The Europeans were quite late to the emissions control game, when they discovered diesel emissions were a serious health hazzard.

At one time the Europeans allowed far more relaxed emissions controls on diesel vs gasoline motors, but even in the late 1980's you could still buy a diesel or gasoline vehicle with NO emissions controls there

Diesel passenger car vehicles are still allowed to pollute more than comparable gasoline counterparts, and some emissions that are regulated here are not there, and vice versa.

The Golf sold in the EU also has a DPF, the Mercedes ones also have urea after-injection. All that complexity makes reliability go down, there is no such thing as a "simple" diesel engine anymore

Are you referring to ULSD? The emissions controls, especially DPF/SCR, demand very low sulfur levels. Sulfur will act as a lubricant in the pumps. Similar failure reports crop up in the EU especially in older engines that are now run on ULSD

We in NOrth America very quickly went from 500 ppm sulfur in diesel to <15 ppm sulfur in diesel.

All that said, when I recently took a 2010 made in Germany VW Golf 5 door hatch TDI with 6 speed manual for a test drive, I had to shake my head at the difference in interior quality and feel compared to similar offerings from Toyota and Honda

I drove the "Comfortline" version, which had the optional upgraded stereo with touchscreen. The interior feels much more comfortable than something like a Corolla

A Corolla, Prius for that matter, have downright primative seats. The made in Germany Golf I drove has four wheel independant suspension, it's firm yet compliant enough and the handling is light years better

I learned to drive on a stick, and the 6 speed was perfect. Everything just felt "right" in that Golf, and I very seriously considered it.

 

Well, when I had my 03' Beetle (only because I couldn't land a realistically priced Golf), I would run the thing on B100....some of it I brewed myself for ~ $2.00 per gallon, and some I bought from Houston BioDiesel for less per gallon that dino-diesel. But ever since the PD engines, I would have to agree with you. All the same, I was getting an average of 46mpg with normal driving and the ability to haul nice person if I had to, which is ~ the same fuel mileage I get with my Prius without the ability to haul nice person. That would be one advantage as long as you ignore the crappy reliability issues.

 

Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Update

About 20-30 cents more for diesel here on the East Coast.

Rarely (where i live) does the price of diesel drop below the price of regular gas.

 

There are different standards for gas and diesel cars in Europe, although I'm not sure it's fair to say that diesels are really allowed to pollute more. Higher NOx emissions are allowed for diesels, higher CO limits allowed for gasoline vehicles (Euro 5 - Emission Standards: Europe: Cars and Light Trucks ).

Starting with Euro 5, a particle number (PN) limit was established for diesel-fueled vehicles. Europe will be setting a PN standard for gasoline vehicles shortly. According to CARB, IF the limit is set at the same level for gas vehicles as it currently is for diesels (6X10**11 /km), gasoline vehicles will require particulate filters to meet the standard.

 

Yes, the ULSD is a bit short on lubricity in the USA. I hear our specification is slightly better here, but still put in an additive just to play it safe. Probably helps fuel economy a little anyway so it's not much of an added cost, if any. Here's the document the Bosch released: http://www.bosch-kraftfahrzeugtechn...kus_1/FIEM_Common_Position_Statement_2009.pdf

What looked important to me was the following,

I drive a Golf TDI 5-door Comfortline 6-speed too The Prius has a fantastic powertrain, but the rest of the car felt less polished to me somehow than the Golf. That was one of the things that pushed me towards the Golf.

 

Go to this article

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/dieseldilemma_fullreport.pdf

Page 16. The important point about NOx is that it is a primary smog forming component. Along with NMOG (Non Methane Organic Gasses) as NMOG will combine with NOx.

THe EU emissions still allow a diesel engine to produce a LOT more NMOG than a comparable gasoline engine. The EPA does not allow this.

I do feel that diesel engines do have their place. A lot of folks think of the simple and very reliable diesel engines from the 70's-early 90's before emissions: they really were simple.

With modern electronics and emissions, diesel and gasoline are now comparable in complexity, indeed talk to anybody who has had a timing belt let go on a tdi, or has had to replace the injectors on a Duramax out of warranty.

I'm not sure if this is the same model sold in the US, but the 2010 Golf I test drove at St James VW Audi the build sticker clearly indicated Made in Germany.

There is a substantial difference in build quality and how the New Golf "feels." The seats are awesome. Ride is comfortable enough, with amazing handling. The car simply does not feel "cheap."

I would still avoid the DSG transmission, and one must plan for the eventual timing belt job. But the Golf has driving dynamics far superior to a Prius, and certainly to a Corolla.

 

I believe all the North American Golfs are now made in Germany.

 

I just don't understand why diesel cars in America were virtually banned until recently, yet around Dallas, clanging diesel doolie pickups are commonplace. I'd bet at least 30% of them are really for personal use.

 

Didn't you mean NOx?

Not to get in a scientific debate on this topic (I don't disagree that NOx is an air pollutant), but current state-of-the-art knowledge is that whether NOx is "smog-forming" or "smog-depleting" depends on local ambient conditions. Location that are currently in non-attainment with the ozone NAAQS (ozone is the primary constituent of "smog") have been shown to be "VOC-limited" with respect to ozone formation, which means that ambient NMOG/NMHC/VOC levels determine ozone levels, not NOx. See http://www.altfuels.us/pdf/lawson[1].pdf .

In short, NOx "makes" the ozone, VOCs allow it to accumulate.

 

VW puts out a great product. I came from an MKV GTI, which is on the same platform as the Golf and Jetta. I absolutely loved that car, but I needed extra doors, a bit more room, and lower cost of ownership. I was on the fence between a Jetta TDI sportwagen and the Prius for quite sometime. In end the Prius prevailed for a couple of reasons...

1. diesel fuel is more expensive than 87 octane in Chicago (sometimes by 30-40 cents a gallon)
2. The Prius gets significantly better mileage than the 2009-2010 2.0 Diesel. The old 1.9L TDI did really well with gas, but the new one is not near that range. If you go on fuelly, you will see most people averaging mid 30's-low 40's on the new TDI's. I have averaged 54 mpg since I bought the Prius in April.
3. The dealer network for VW is not great. Their service is less than stellar and lets face it, the modern VW is a tough car to work on at home. Parts are expensive as well. The reliability of most of their models is leaps and bounds above the old MKIII or MKIV models as well, but not at Toyota levels. The TDI normally has higher reliability ratings than the gasser models however.
4. The total cost of ownership was far lower with the Prius. I saved nearly 5K off the top with price differences (A TDI wagon with a 6 speed runs nearly 26K, and they don't offer much of any discounts or special financing traditionally). Add in gas and repair costs, along with reliability records, and the Prius is a winner.

The TDI rides on rails, has great torque, has a beautiful interior (I loved sitting in my GTI, as it was my 20K dollar Audi) and is a great package. I hate the seats on my Prius and some of the cheaper interior materials, but the drivetrain is top notch, and that is what I bought the car for. My insurance is lower, my gas costs are lower, and I love the Prius. But when my wife's XJ Cherokee finally kicks the bucket (or rusts beyond use) we will consider a TDI wagon again........unless the new Prius V is a serious wagon!

 

Did they change this with 2011? Or perhaps could it be different in Canada? When I was cross-shopping (looking at 2010s), they were all built in Puebla, Mexico. Not saying there's a problem with that--all Ford Fusions are built in Hermosillo, and seem to hold up well... Just curious. And I have to echo others in that I like the way the VWs drive, and the seats are supportive in all the right places.
~T

 

I would be very surprised if any of the Golfs (except for the wagon) came from Mexico. The Jetta has been made in Mexico for quite a while now, were you maybe looking at a Jetta instead? North American Golfs are made in Germany, with perhaps an exception for the Golf wagon, which is more closely related to the Jetta, and may come from the Puebla plant.

 

I wouldn't consider a VW until they stop hiring hungover interns to design them. Their reliability is among the worst in the industry now. Just crap on wheels. I'd like to consider them otherwise, they do have a nicer feel to them and a certain classiness without BMW/Merc costs but their reliability is too poor and I won't submit myself to it.

Speaking of high pressure fuel pumps I found a guy on another forum with a late model 335i I think it was and he was on his third HPFP at around 12k.

 

The Golf, and to a lesser extend the Jetta, is their bread and butter and does much better than their rating as a company. It's the big behemoth Touareg and things like the Passat that are rock bottom and drag their rating way down.

 

Yes, I was in a hurry and used the wrong acronym.

I find it interesting the Europeans appear to place less emphasis on NOx, which will intereact with VOC's and NMOG's to form ozone and other smog compounds

I found the Alternative Fuels website interesting, but according to the EPA the primary source of NOx is transportation

Nitrogen Oxides | Air Emission Sources | US EPA

Fuels and solvents are the primary contributor to VOC's

Volatile Organic Compounds | Air Emission Sources | US EPA

PM10 and PM2.5 is trickier to quantify

Particulate Matter | Air Emission Sources | US EPA

But these results reflect testing done at the Swedish VTI that demonstrate the sanding roads in winter is a major contributor to urban PM, not the use of studded winter tires

One other thing that diesel engines are known for is production of dioxin

Diesel Exhaust

http://www.toronto.ca/health/pdf/de_technical_appendix.pdf

etc

The 2010 Golf I test drove the build sticker clearly indicated Made in Germany. I also took a 2010 Jetta for a spin, the build sticker Made in Mexico

In theory, both should `feel`the same. In reality, the Golf had a `better`feel to it. The Golf I test drove was also priced $4,000 MORE than the Jetta

At the end of the day, I came very close to taking that Golf home with me. The driving dynamics were light years beyond a Corolla or Prius. The seats were light years better too.

Reliability is a question mark. Most of the folks I know who purchased a +2007 Golf claim they have had no issues and like the car.

 

Hi jayman, the Golf is actually a much newer design than the Jetta. The Jetta roots go back to the Mk5 Golf platform that came out around 2003. Around the same time as the 2nd gen Prius. The 2010 Golf is on an updated version of that platform, and should feel better as there has been a lot of development time since when the Mk5 came out.

 

Seftonm, you're a rare breed. May I say that every VW driver who comes behind me tailgates me and then passes me while staring me down?

 

Hi Mike

I also noticed that subjective "feel" just felt better on the Golf. Ironically, at least by what I saw and felt, the Golf is a better car than the Jetta

Again I came very, very close to taking one home with me. Those Comfortline seats are just amazing

 

I agree, I tried both too and the Golf somehow felt more modern and better put together than the Jetta. Part of the reason why I chose it over the Jetta. Very nice seats, did a drive down to Madison and back earlier this summer and got out and felt better after that drive than I ever have before after sitting that long in any other vehicle.

Hi macmaster, thanks? I think. Maybe VWs are the douchebag car of choice out in the bay area? I know a few owners here and have to say they're pretty cool people and are smarter than to tailgate and stare people down.

 

Our family garage includes:
a Prius IV for the wife
an Audi A3 TDI Premium Plus for me
a Jetta TDI for my 18 year old son
a Honda Fit Sport for my 19 year old daughter

all 2010 models

The wife and I swap out cars when the feeling takes us. My son loves the torque with his TDI - makes his Mustang owning friends envious with the torque and mileage. My daughter chose the Fit for the color and the fact she can fit two tubas in the back for band.

Love the Prius but do not be blinded to the VW built TDI's. Great motors. My golf pro just sold his Jetta TDI - he had over 350,000 miles on his with only oil changes on the engine and maintenance everywhere else.