Mark gets a shot at driving the PHV Prius in and around NYC

You say that "making economic sense has no meaning you can discern"??? What planet are you from? You talk gibberish. Are you running for political office, because your rhetoric sure reminds me of a political, or some religious mumbo-jumbo?

"Lastly", there' no fantasy here. I've worked the numbers, and know for fact that in my case, there are no savings either financially, or environmentally. Do dream on, because you are the delusional one.

Check out the July 2010 issue of Scientific American, and look for the article entitled: "The dirty truth about plug-in hybrids". Not my article, but there is plenty of data and references, from various Government studies, that indicate it depends upon where you derive your electricity from. I worked out the numbers for where I live, and the CO2 savings comparing a plug-in to non-plug in G3 are insignificant. Sorry, but that's what the article/numbers show.

 

Sage, if a major mfr. produced a car that equaled a Honda Civic in terms of cost, space, practicality, ... everything, it would probably sell as good as the Civic or the like.

I like what I see in the Leaf. IMO, it is the most promising highway capable BEV ever.

 

Just compare CO2 output where you live. That's all I am talking about. I bet 90% of the people here have not made those calculations for their own situation - ie, location and annual driving distances.

I have. Period.

In my case, there is no CO2 savings from my current G3 Prius, compared to the Prius plug-in.

If the range will work, it would seem to me that all EV makes better economic sense...provided the price is not significantly different from the plug in.

From a prior post. My numbers:




Why there may be a 50% increase in MPGs with the plug-in, the bottom line to most consumers will be their aggregate, total energy cost. So one also needs to add in the additional increase on one's home electric bill.

In my case, I'm spending:

(17K miles/year)/(55 MPG) ~ 309 gallons/yr

(309 gallons) X $2.70/gallon ~ $834/yr TOTAL energy cost for non-plug-in, assuming ~ 17K miles/yr


For Plug-in G3:

(17K)/75) ~ 226 gallons.yr

(226 gallons) X $2.70 ~ $612/yr + electrical energy cost at home

If one assumes you will completely re-charge every night, using the US average electricity rates (off peak), the result is about $0.50 per complete re-charge cycle (ie, per day). So, in a 5 day work week, that adds another $2.50/week in added electricity charges.

Assuming the car is used 50, out of 52 weeks/year, then the total added electricity cost for the plug-in is: 50 weeks X $2.50/week, or about ~ $125/year in electricity cost.

So, the total energy cost for the plug-in is about:

$612 (for gas/yr) + $125 (electricity/yr) ~ $737 TOTAL energy expense for the plug-in, driving ~ 17K miles/yr.


TOTAL ENERGY COST DIFFERENCE (per year) = $834 - $737 = $97

REDUCTION IN TOTAL ENERGY COST = 11.6%

....so, while my MPGs might have gone up by 50%, my effective energy cost reduction only went down by 12%.

Conclusion: In my case, driving about 17K miles per year, I might expect the plug-in to save me about $100/year in energy transportation costs. Even if I double that, to $200 savings per year, it's still in the noise. If I had a much shorter comute, where most of the round trip would be in EV mode, then the savings would be considerably different. Soooooo, for my case (and most of us), if the price difference between the G3 and the plug-in is (after tax incentives) only ~ $3K....I will NEVER make up the cost differential unless the price of gas jumps up to $4-$5/gallon! My payback period, for just a $3K differential in price, is enormous and would not make economic sense.

Also, given that electricity in the mid-Atlantic is fossil fuel based in origin, there is NO CO2 savings between the plug-in and non-plu-in Prius G3.

If you are considering the plug-in, I would suggest you work your own numbers for where you live, under your driving conditions, and decide if it makes economic sense to your situation. If economics are not a factor, then buy whatever you want...but don't assume there will be a big savings in transportation costs...because i think that assumption will not be valid for the majority of drivers.

 

The world is not the USA, petrol is $7 a gallon here. What is the $/gallon crossover point in your calculation? Do you think it's likely to exceed that point during the lifetime of a vehicle purchased in 2012?

 

What part of, "in my case", did you not understand? geez.

If you had actually bothered to read what I posted, I already answered your question regarding cross over point. But even this cross over point assumes that the price for electricity remains flat, which, in my case, it hasn't. Up 25% over the last 3 years.

But let's suppose gas goes to $6 here in the US. That's more than double it's current price in the US. That works out, in my case, to about $475 savings per year in gas cost. Please note that this does not inlude the $100-$200 per year in added electricity cost. Just keeping it to gas. Keep it simple. So that works out to a bit over 6 years to payback the difference assuming the difference is only $3K, and not adding in the added cost to finance the additional $3k...but when you factor in the electricity cost to me, even at current rates, the payback is now closer to 9 years. Oh, and I do not expect to see $6 gas in the US for many years, and if it does reach $6, most assuredly it will be well into the latter stages of the car's lifetime.

Finally, it should be noted, as fact, that the capacity of the EV battery will begin to drop the day you drive it home. So, any assumptions about a 50% higher mpg over the regular G3, are not accurate as the car continues to age. Degredation of battery capacity is a scientific fact, and should be factored into any careful analysis/comparisons. How much degradation in battery capacity I do not know. But I would not be surprised to see a 25% reduction in capacity, and therefore mpg's, after a few years of heavy use, and daily recharging. To assume there will be little degradation of the battery is, in my opinion, naive. But I'm sure this too will be ignored by those that are not interested in economic reasons. But that's fine. I'm not here on some religious campaign to convince people to do one thing, or another. I'm simply saying that people should carefully weigh all the facts before putting up $30k on a vehicle.

I did when I bought by G3 Prius. For me, the G3 did make perfect economic and environmental sense...but had the car been much more expensive, I'm sure I would have chosen something else.

 

A study done by US DOE confirmed this as well. The GHG emission of PHV Prius is about the same as a standard Prius. The longer the EV range (Chevy Volt), the more GHG emission.

It appears, PHV Prius' 14 EV miles range was chosen to not exceed GHG emission standard set by HV Prius. You are right that some states (such has CA) will benefit from PHVs and some states (IL) will be worse by PHVs. On average, the GHG emission is about the same.

The difference is 1,000 gallons of gasoline saved. The cost may turn out to be zero, depending on how Toyota is going to price it. The real question is, will you be willing to plug the car for 10 years, pretty much everyday. It'll depend on how much of a tree hugger within you. If you already have solar panel on your roof, PHV Prius would be better. You'll also have to count the fun factor PHV Prius provides with more modes. HOV lane access should not be discounted as well.

 

I wonder how many potential PHV owners get some form of green energy already. Whether it's local green energy (like solar panels), or more remote (signing up with your utility company for green energy), that can make your GHG emissions effectively zero.

I don't have a PHV, and since I just bought a Prius, I'm not considering getting one any time soon. But if I had waited a few years, I'd definitely consider them. I also pay a bit extra to my utility company for 100% green energy. The average customer of my utility gets about 44% renewable energy (a small amount of which still involves burning things - just waste and biomass instead of coal, oil, and natural gas). I pay 1.5¢/kWh extra to get 95% wind and 5% solar. Now yes, the actual electrons I receive are just as likely to have come from a coal plant as my neighbor's electrons - I'm really paying extra to force the utility to buy more renewable overall.

I also participated in a similar program in my last city, which was in a different state. And I'd bet that a lot of people who consider a PHV for being green are participating in similar programs, where they are available.

 

Actually what I meant was.. did you ever just drive strictly in EV mode for several days on end.. as in plugging in every day so as to effectively eliminate the need for HV mode altogether?

 

Hey probably a great explanation, but did not read more than the first line. i would GLADLY pay twice what i currently pay for gas right now to go 100% electric. VERY GLADLY pay that and more!!!

FYI; i have been driving an EV for 3 years. the actual savings i would have for an extended range EV would be $600 a year at current gas prices and current transportation needs. as it is, i AM saving (not calulated!! real savings. i used to post the savings in my sig. but had to take it out because of limitations in characters) over $300 a year with an Electric car that seats 2, has an effective range under 20 miles, and cant go faster than 35 mph.

 

THAT right there is what i am craving the most. i got a teeny weeny taste of that when i test drove the Volt. although it was in charge sustaining mode, i never heard or felt the engine run and i did get up to 60 mph on my painfully short drive. along with the added stability of the heavy battery pack, the ride was awesome.

in 3 weeks i will be test driving the car i will buy, the Leaf. the excitement is starting to get unbearable!!

 

Please.. let us know when that experience happens!!! And take PICS!!!

 

several have already done so

My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Leaf Test Drives in the US

mine turn is in 3 weeks!!

 

Was hoping for video... none...or not working

 

actually there was a few videos posted and they did not play for me either. (limited chat bandwidth i think) but clicking on loads you tube and it plays there ok.

i dont think i will be doing much as far as video since i will not be able to drive and film but will be doing pics.