Chevy Volt is 99% Ready

It is not a waste of money if you take a long-term business approach. You make the assumption that GM can make fewer Volts than they can sell. I would agree with you if the Volt was priced as a typical vehicle ($ 18K - $ 30K). It appears that this vehicle will sell close to $ 40K. That is far more than most people can afford.

Let's face it, U.S. car makers need an image make-over. Here we are in the 21st century, and Detroit has the image of a 20th century auto maker. Advertising the Volt as a new generation automobile can initiate that image change.

Keith

 

Why didn't you take a picture of rear seats, something like as follows?
It can't be a mid-size vehicle.

Ken@Japan

 

Regarding the bolded part, than who? It irks me they keep talking about more models than any others with x mpg or above or that they keep emphasizing highway mileage in their ads.

Take a look at GM's CAFE numbers at http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/cafe/CAFE_Performance_Report_April_2010.pdf. They're inferior to Toyota and Honda for their 3 fleets w/GM take huge advantage of the E85 scam to boost their numbers. They're worse than Nissan and Ford too in 2/3 fleets.

About the only edge GM has in warranties is a high covered mileage for powertrain and roadside assistance (but not a particularly long term). See http://www.edmunds.com/advice/warranties/articles/43094/article.html.

 

I took a look at that and i do know that if you take what they sell and average up the mpg toyota does win, but that not what i was talking about. But that has to do with the fact of sales and available products, and mostly to blame americans.

If you were to buy a rav4 22/28 you would get better mpg with a Chevy Equionox22/32.

A chevy Cruise24/36 matches Corrola26/35. A chevy truck will beat a Tundra you can even get a chevy hybrid that gets 23 hwy/20city. I work in construction and i have spoke to many people who get around 13 in their tundra, where as most chevy's will get closer to 18. I do like just about everything in the tundras better besides their mpg.

A camaro can get 30mpg on the highway.

I will admit that their fleet mpg is lower. But alot of their models do beat or match toyota in mpg.

Gm powertrain warranty lasts for 40% more miles and the same time as Toyota. But most people will drive more than 10k a year so it can help alot.

I am open minded. This is my first Toyota, I honestly was stuned when a few months after i bought my Prius i learned that if it breaks down Toyota will not provide any transportation for me. I was used to gm providing me with a car for free. If this toyota lives up to what so many people say, i shouldn't have problems. But it will be a deciding factor in the next car i buy if i do have a break down and i am paying to rent a car. And if it takes a week or two from waiting on parts and or special tecs as i have read about on here i will be really upset if i have a couple hundred dollar rental bill.

My main point in here is to not say gm is better. I'm saying give them a chance. And with the volt give them a chance. I would like to drive one. Everyone in here acts like they would pass if they were offered a test drive, i doubt thats true. i think alot of the people in here would find it neat to go 30 miles not burning gas. and that Gm will beat toyota to the market this time with a plugin/gas car.

Have a good day everyone. And bash away...LOL

 

I'm looking forward to the Volt release so we can finally be shed of these "the Volt is coming." Sure, it will be replaced by "the Volt is here" but so too is the Prius . . . and Honda . . . and Ford . . . e.t.c.

Bob Wilson

 

Yes, I would find neat to go 30miles not burning gas!
And yes, I would give them a chance, and would not give away the opportunity to test drive one.

But, sincerely, Charge sustain mode killed this car. And that mode is necessary to bring Volt to sucess, otherwise is to be a 2nd or even 3rd car of a familiy. And Prius plug-in wins very easily, because its CS mode is the most efficient on earth = equals the actual Prius.

So, beating Toyota is not the issue, GM already took of in another direction, in my point of view, technically wrong. GM has to beat its own "market demands for everyone", since Volt cannot compete against Prius PHV.

 

You think 36 months is a lot? A typical full development cycle is 7 years.

 

Prius came from a blank sheet of paper to reality/production in less than 3 years!

 

The Prius PHEV is heavier. It won't do as well unless the shift in weight and necessary upgrades for the PHEV improved economy. Really, any improvement in the Prius PHEV CS should be available to the regular Prius.

And the Prius really won't "win" for many people. If by "win" you mean save money its fundamental problem is that it has a low AER. If you have a low AER you can't do many EV miles annually and therefore you can't save enough money. While people could plug in at work or at public chargers that's a very bad thing because it adds to peak and near-peak loads and we want people to charge off-peak.

For me the Prius PHEV would lose in running costs to the Volt as long as the Volt delivers somewhere nears its 40 mile AER because I do lots of 40-45 round trips.

I'm in the USA where fuel costs are low but in fact increased fuel costs would actually give an advantage to the Volt for a good number of drivers: you save the increase on every EV mile it can do that the Prius can't and you lose only a portion of the increase for every CS mile. If the Volt delivers its promised AER with my 41.4 mile round-trip commute it could be 27 extra miles EV every working day. Even if the Volt CS is 40% worse than the Prius I would have to drive over 10000 miles in CS mode before the extra Prius CS pays off (assuming equal EV performance).

It's actually delivering on the AER that should be more important to many people than having a good CS mode, and the Volt's serial hybrid design is built for EV performance.

 

And the Volt will be less than 4 years and the same new platform led to the new Cruze.

 

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...le-range-finally-comes-out-2.html#post1187261

Every step you take out of EV range in a Volt, you might make some calculations. And volt CS mileage may even be worse than that, but I hope not.

And regarding PHV Prius, also you have Tony's post in the page #3 to give an idea of mileage once EV mode wears out.

 

Perhaps the time to look at the Volt is after it hits the showroom floors and we have a Fuel Economy set specifications to work from. There is a lot of hat but no cattle.

Bob Wilson

 

PHV Prius is heavier but it has powerful / more efficient battery and it benefits from it. The demo units showed better MPG in CS mode than a standard Prius. This has been confirmed with the official Japanese test cycle. We'll have to see how it will be in EPA test cycle.

Majority (51%) of the accidents occur within 5 miles from home. This indicates most of the trips are very close to home. Volt was designed as a commuter car, to cover 76% of those "home to work" trips and you only charge once at home. There are many other trips that are much shorter and you may charge at work or at public charging stations. For these short trips for daily chores, the money you paid for the extra EV miles is simply wasted. PHV Prius' EV range is used to it's full extend almost every time. Charging at work or public chargers is a good thing for PHV Prius because the battery pack is small. It'll only consume 3.56 kWh. I see your point about charging an electric car during peak hour would be bad.

The idea is to charge often to avoid massive cost for the expensive battery that you "might" need.

That will depend on the price of the PHV Prius and Volt's CS MPG. What values are you using to arrive at that conclusion? Remember, PHV Prius qualifies for $2,917 tax credit. It runs on 87 Octane gas but the Volt runs on 91 Premium. It will qualify for HOV lane in California. It is a bigger car than the Volt (smaller car should use less energy).

Are you assuming electricity is free and it emits zero emission?

Even if the Volt gets the claimed 40 EV miles and PHV Prius gets 13 EV miles, you are saving 148 gallon of gasoline per year - 1,480 gallons in 10 years. At $3 per gallon, that's $4,430. Subtract the cost of extra electricity plus the delivery charge. Using the average 13 cents per kWh in Maine, that's $2,281 for the extra 27 EV miles for 10 years (260 days per year). In your case, PHV Prius will "win" if it is $2,149 less than the Volt. If the gas is $4 per gallon, PHV Prius will need to cost $3,639 less than the Volt. $5 per gallon - $5,119. It is important to note that Volt's battery warranty run out in 8 years.

US DOE did a research and found that Volt actually produces more greenhouse gas than a PHV Prius. What's mind-bogging is that Volt produces more GHG than a standard Prius! That's because most of the electricity are produced from coal. Renewable energy usage varies from state to state but on average, Volt would emit more GHG. It is important to note that Volt is great for petroleum displacement but not for reducing GHG emission. The reason is simple; the energy needed to displace petroleum comes from another source which generate more GHG.

The same report indicated that Volt's real-world adjusted EV range will be 35 miles. The EV range for the blend plugin (PHV Prius) stays consistent, meaning it will remain 13 miles. The demo PHV Prius driven by PriusChat members consistently got more than 13 miles. They were driven in real-world traffic at various speed (not just at low speed in parking lot).

The benefit / cost ratio does not favor the Volt. Smaller battery pack gives the best bang for the buck, especially when both powertrains (100%) are utilized. Hybrid will blend power from a combination of power sources. It is only natural for the gas engine to come on when floored. You get the benefit of both engines. Gas electric hybrid has two powertrains making up the whole drivetrain. Gas engine and electric motors are the powertrains. The combination of both become the hybrid drivetrain (that drives the wheels).

Volt is a hybrid because it has a battery pack + electric motor, gas engine, gas tank and an exhaust pipe. The way the Volt operates restrict the benefit of the gas engine. The battery and electric motor have the burden of the gas powertrain. It does not help out but sits as a dead weight.

This creates problem that require additional engineering solutions.

1) Gasoline goes stale. Premium gas was used. This requires the gas engine to run outside the normal operation.

2) Gas engine dessicates (lack of lubrication). This again requires the gas engine to start outside the normal operation.

3) Need mountain mode. Since the battery holds very little energy, it easily runs out on a long stretch of uphill. In order to preserve the charge, the drive must manually activate it. Basically, Volt is not smart enough to use the gas engine when you really need it. Instead, it'll turn on the gas engine when you don't need it.

4) Cabin heat. When heat is needed, battery is used instead of recirculating exhaust heat from the gas engine.

5) Reduced battery reliability. Volt put all the load on the battery until it runs "dry". This puts a lot of stress on the battery. This would reduce the life of the pack. Liquid cooling was introduced to deal with it. Volt has a total of 3 coolants to maintain. Even with the liquid cooling, 8 years / 100k miles warranty did not meet AT-PZEV. The result was SULEV emission rating and HOV lane access was denied. AT-PZEV was deferred to gen2 Volt.

 

Yes, the Prius PHV is heavier, but the current Prius PHV field test version is better than the conventional Prius.

Following is a copy of my post
-----
Following is JP Prius comparison in HV mode and the PHV is better than the conventional Prius.

Prius Plug-in 30.6 km/L (JC08 mode)
conventional Prius 30.4 km/L (JC08 mode)

Ken@Japan

 

In CS mode the PHEV uses the NiMH pack which is the, I believe, the same as the regular Prius. If that's right then the improvement would have to come from other replaced components.

I understand that charging is a good thing for cost. It's cheaper to run on EV. But frequent charging is bad for the country because it will add the peak load and more peak load means more nuclear and more coal.

Yes, I understand that, but the problem is that aside from weekends multiple charges are liable to be at peak times and that is a bad thing.

If you don't need a larger battery you're commuting less than 13 miles each day. I used to commute over 80 miles a day by bus and train. I commuted 13 miles each day by bicycle and I'd be doing it now if I were that close. People in a dense city will more likely have more public transportation available, people in a less dense area have easier cycling. That extra $3-$4k can pay for an e-bike with money to spare and it will save money and make people more healthy. I'm hoping that the introduction of PHEV and cheaper lithium will lead to an increase in e-bike use.

Let me be clear, that's lower running costs. I haven't looked at TCO. Simple TCO calculations give the advantage to the Prius HEV.

Electricity is $0.148/kWh

Prius: 50mpg
PHEV Prius: 47mpg/13AER $2.729 - savings v Prius $44.44, 13891.0 miles*
Volt: 32mpg/36AER, $2.939 - savings v Prius $101.20, 12445.4
miles*

Oh, in case you question the 47mpg:
PHEV Prius: 50mpg/13AER $2.729 - savings v Prius $83.24, 17924 miles.

If the Volt only gets 35AER and the PHEV gets 50mpg then it would cost more to run than the PHEV Prius saving only $74.35 per year.

But note the tiny savings from either of them. Electricity is expensive here.

For additional comparison

Leaf: 80AER, savings $183.70, 13639.0 miles

What if we had cheap electricity?

If electricity were $0.05:
PHEV Prius 50mpg/13AER: $209.01
Volt 32mpg/35AER: $380.06
Leaf 80AER: $554.99

Gas at $5:

PHEV Prius: $310.57
Volt: $779.14
Leaf: $803.19

* We have a Prius so we can drive the better vehicle.

No, I'm not stupid. I have a spreadsheet with our regular trips, electricity prices, gas prices, AER, mpg and a charging efficiency factor of 90%. The spreadsheet calculates the costs and chooses the better vehicle for each trip, including taking into account that both my wife and I need to commute. She commutes 40 miles and I commute 41.4 miles round trip.

Actually our electricity is $0.148/kWh including the delivery charge and the running cost savings would be $2172.10.

It's not important that the warranty runs out in 8 years because even if gas prices stayed unchanged I'd do 100,000 miles in 8 years. If the production model is the same as the mules I'd never get 100,000 miles out of the PHEV Prius lithium packs so it'd hit the 8 year warranty. An 8 year warranty would cover 40k miles, assuming you average over 13 miles EV every day of the year for 8 years. But to get maximum savings from a PHEV Prius I'd need to do more miles in it so the warranty would actually run out faster.

I was comparing running cost not TCO. The problem is if TCO is all-important I wouldn't buy a PHEV Prius because it'll lose to the regular Prius. It'd cost more (including I expect at least a $1,000 Three penalty), have higher taxes and higher insurance.

But in Maine in 2007 the mix was 12.2% coal and oil.
In New England in 2010 it's 34% oil and coal.

One of the reasons electricity is expensive here is that it's not high coal or nuclear.

In high-GHG states with cheap electricity the Volt will have more of a running-cost advantage and in expensive low-GHG, low nuclear states it will have more of a GHG advantage.

To summarize:
If I want to consume less gas a Volt will be better than the PHEV Prius.
If I want to reduce GHG a Volt will be better than the PHEV Prius.
If I want to save money a regular Prius will be better than the PHEV Prius.
If I really want to save money I should get an e-bike so I can commute on it and get some exercise.

And neither vehicle has EPA mileage yet.

And they also consistently beat the EPA numbers in their regular Priuses so there's no reason to believe they won't be able to beat the Volt's EPA AER and CS mileage.

Yes, running as a full parallel hybrid has benefits. And nobody can beat the Prius' CS performance. But if the Prius must be better than the Volt then the regular Prius must be better than the PHEV Prius because the PHEV running in EV mode isn't taking advantage of the engine. Why are they even bothering?

And so do the lithium packs in the Prius PHEV when not running in EV which they will do more than the Volt.

Any medium range PHEV will have the same potential problem. Short-range PHEVs don't have the problem because they have EV range too limited to avoid burning gas.

Premium gas was apparently chosen for efficiency. GM found that they got better mileage from it. It's particularly good in some states where premium doesn't have ethanol in it.

The engine will cycle but if it has to do that it means the car is being driven solely in EV mode most of the time and that would imply high EV mileage which implies the car is serving its purpose.

The only reason the Prius PHEV doesn't have to do this is that with such a short range it'll be using the engine a lot more.

If you don't need the generator enough that it needs regular cycling I suggest investigating a different solution: BEV and rental.

So in other words it's as dumb as a Prius that doesn't know to fill up the battery so it has more assist for the upcoming hill, or that it can wait to recharge because there's a regen opportunity coming. Or that doesn't know it can cut off power in cruise control before the crest of the hill because nobody's behind you and it'd save gas to get out of the power zone. Or that won't let you put it in EV mode when you turn it on cold even though you're only going to move it in your driveway. In fact it's as dumb as every single production car: it knows what's happening and what has happened but doesn't know what will happen.

The fact it needs mountain mode is a good sign. It has mountain mode because it has a downsized engine. In fact people are complaining that the generator is too large (just as people complain that the US 3rd Gen Prius has an oversized engine). If you don't put it in mountain mode the car might not be able to maintain a high speed but it's not going to roll back down the mountain.

Somehow I think that people who live around mountains won't have any problem dealing with it.

Yes and the Prius has to burn gas to use the exhaust which it's more likely to be doing because of the smaller battery. And in EV mode it'll use the battery like the Volt.

There's an assumption that GM refusing to give a 150k warranty means they know the battery will be unreliable. But that ignores the fact that the battery is new so it could simply be that they are playing it safe.

Exclusion from HOV lanes and the loss of the CA tax credit might hurt sales but not being given HOV lane access is a good thing. It might be an incentive to buy but it increases emissions of the other vehicles using the lanes.

In EV mode the Prius is using the batteries and will put all the load on the batteries. Since it has such a short range more of its journeys will deep discharge one or both of the packs. And if people do as you advocate and charge their packs more that means more charge cycles. The only extra stress in the Volt will be in CS mode. Then again the regular Prius' NiMH battery pack seems to hold up pretty well to regular cycling so maybe all this battery discussion is moot.

 

That is the central discussion I would like to highlight.

There is a practical limit for a plug-in hybrid EV range, which is the weight of the batteries, that have to be added to the ICE itself - this makes worse EV travelling.
This is also the most remarkable feature of the BEV, there is no ICE to burden EV.

So Toyota has made many modelling, I believe among data: weight and cost of batteries, EV range and its impact in energy consumption through all modes.
They have done much homework! And in the past, this homework has proven correctly...They have reached the best solution always and Prius PHV has been designed accordingly.

Volt has this limbo features: works as a heavy plug-in during EV mode (FE worse than Leaf), and works as a normal ICE car during CS mode (FE worse than Prius PHV).

If it is to drive up to 40mi a day, perhaps BEV is a much better solution.
If it is to drive further, perhaps Prius PHV is a much better solution.

I may ask then: which is the optimal operational field of the Volt?

 

Nope. PHV Prius does not have NiMH battery. It only has Lithium battery divided into three sub-packs (1.73 kWh each). Only one of the sub-pack is used in HV / CS mode. As you can see, one Lithium sub-pack can hold more charge (1.73 vs. 1.31 kWh) than a standard NiMH and Lithium can absorb more regen faster as well.

I numbered them so my reply can be clear. For #1, it depends on the length of the trip. For trips such as "Freedom Drive", PHV Prius will consume less gas. For average trips, Volt should consume less gas but with a price. Volt uses more energy per mile than Prius (see Fig 6.1) despite being a smaller compact 4 seater. Volt also consume more fossil fuel (see Fig 6.2) than a standard Prius - all in the name of consuming less petroleum.

If you look at the big picture..... for 150,000 miles of a car's life:

15 MPG vehicle would consume 10,000 gallon of gas.
25 MPG vehicle would consume 6,000 gallon of gas.
50 MPG vehicle (Prius) would consume 3,000 gallon of gas.
75 MPG vehicle (PHV Prius) would consume 2,000 gallon of gas.

Saving the last 2,000 gallons become very difficult and costly. There are bigger fish to fry. The low hanging fruits are those driving 15-25 MPG vehicles to convert to Prius or PHV Prius (priced to be mass-market affordable).

For #2, it may be true for you but on average, Volt would emit more GHG than a standard Prius.

For #3, it will depend on the pricing of PHV Prius. $3k to $5k range was given for the PHV premium. With $2,917 tax credit, the "save money" winner can swing either ways.

For #4, if you are ok and the weather permits that is all fine. It represents a compromise and compromising is not a valid solution.

 

Since this comes up often - a word about electricity plant emissions.
- The grid is progressively getting cleaner
- The oil is progressively getting dirtier
- West coast has cleaner power than mid-west

So,
- A volt will have much lower emission 5 years from now than Prius, 5 years from now
- A volt will have lower emission today than a prius in case of west coast / home PV generation / purchasing "green" power

 

I hope so... I was just pointing out the nature of current state for the VOlt. Hype will be hype before the launch. I did my "research" on the reality of it and just sharing with others. In 5 years, things change and another research is available, I will share it too.

Do you have any document about Nissan Leaf's GHG emission compared to Prius or PHV Prius that you can share with us?

I automatically assumed Leaf will be cleaner than Prius. It should also use less fossil fuel. If my assumption is true, I'd like to know by how much. Having quantitative number based on a scientific research would be great. Of course we'll be hearing zero emission hype from Nissan marketing.

 

The only numbers most consumers will look at:

Volt $41,000+
Leaf $32,000
Prius PHV $30,000ish?
Prius Under $25,000

Consult your accountant on whether you qualify for any tax credits...