Convert to Ethanol

A couple of years ago, I tested E30 with my 1.5L NHW11 and no modification was necessary. I chose E30 because of a report that it gave similar performance to straight gas. My hill climb and constant speed tests did not find this to be the case.

As for switching to E85, I suspect there is not a material problem and the past Prius have been very good about self-tuning. You might check to see if any station has a 'mixer' pump that lets you select the ethanol ratio. But if you only have E10 and E85 pumps, you can mix them at the pump, pay twice, to achieve any target ratio you want to test.

When the tank flash occurs, you have about 8 gallons off 'empty' volume. So you can add just the specific quantities at the pump needed:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3
0	E10	E85	total
1	8	0	E10
2	7	1	E19
3	6	2	E29
4	5	3	E38
5	4	4	E48
6	3	5	E57
7	2	6	E66
8	1	7	E76
9	0	8	E85

Just measure the gallons at the pump.

Bob Wilson

0|8|E85[/table]

Bob Wilson

 

Please see P570 and 571 in your owners manual. "Toyota does not recommend using gasohol other than as recommended here" (E10 is listed as ok). If you think forum members or other "experts" know better, do whatever you want. It's your engine/fuel system to replace if necessary.

 

Unless you find several people who have used E85 for years in your model car, anything you find out here is just off the wall anecdotal evidence. Damage from too high an ethanol concentration can take a long time to appear.

 

I wonder if the loss in mileage because of the higher concentration of ethanol will be justified by the 75 cent savings per gallon. I rented a flex fuel car and filled it with E-85 to save some bucks. I was astonished at the MUCH lower mileage and that was as compared to 10% ethanol, which already pales in comparison to real gasoline.

As much as I want to lower dependence on foreign oil, I have serious questions on this ethanol which is being shoved down our throats.

 

Most of us, in whatever state we live, do not have a choice---the gas pumps are 10% ethanol---- and who is to say it isn't even more.
How are we the average consumer going to test it for ourselves.....

I don't like it at all!!

:violin:

 

I didn't mention that the mileage would drop as that's a bit controversial, but here goes.
Motorweek did a show on comparing a number of vehicles, hybrid, diesel, and E85. It turned out the vehicle that -could- run E85 cost more per mile on E85 than on E10.

Here in -Canada- (a foreign country ), we DO have a choice between E10 and "normal" gasoline (I won't say "pure" gasoline because it's a mixture to start with, and the mix is non-standard). I get better mileage on "normal" gasoline than on E10 fuel (they both cost the same). Unfortunately, the oil companies use toxic hydrocarbons such as xylene, toluene, and others to boost the octane rating of their fuel. Not as much in "regular" compared to "mid-grade" or "premium", but it can still be there. Ethyl alcohol is not harmful to the environment -when, not if- it is spilled. The others are.
So you pays your money and takes your chances with the environment etc. It's not a simple choice like so many think.

But it's still moot. E85 is NOT RECOMMENDED in the Prius! According to Toyota.

 

Nice, even though it doesn't talk about phosphor, water and other somewhat non-renewable resources.

 

Hi partmore,

And welcome to Prius Chat. Excuse my going directly to the executive sumary, but this is a well hashed out topic.

Its well understood that Corn Ethanol is a subsidy to Archer Daniels Midlands, and the Corn Lobby. Ethanol is a good fuel oxygenate, but its a lousy fuel for the level of modification that car companies put into cars that are flex-fuel.

To properly burn Ethanol sufficient to get similar economic return per gallon, one needs a high compression engine. Car compies could (look at the Prius engine for example) make a car that has variable compression sufficient to accomadate Ethanol, but they are not. They are using Flex Fuel modifications as a way to cheat the system, getting unreasonable avoidance of the fuel economy laws with each flex fuel vehicle they make. Which have neither variable compression, or other systems to get full fuel efficiency of various Ethanol/Gas mixtures.

This can be done. Hell, it is being done by garage mechanics in Sweden. They put in a manual waste gate control on the turbo charged Volvo's. When they burn E85, they turn up the waste gate to higher boost. When they burn pure gas, they turn it down. They report similar miles per fuel Kronor this way. Which we do not have in the USA today with the Flex-Fuel farce.

A much better corn bio-fuel is Butanol. This can burn like gas , and any mixture of gas to butanol , in any car on the road today. It does not corrode pipelines, so it can be pipeline distributed. And it has more fuel energy per gallon. Resulting in almost no change in mileage compared to gas.

 

+1
The illustration fails to capture a LOT of the waste of grain fuel. The pollution in making grain fuel for one ... even before it's burned as fuel. Never mind that people are starving throughout the world, and that the grain could go to feed humanity ... no way, right? ... we convert grain just so our teen agers can do burnouts in the driveway when no one's home. It's almost criminal. My favorite criminal act of grain fuel is how lobbyists got fuel mileage standards to NOT count grain fuel. Thus ... you convert a land barge that normally only gets 16mpg on gasoline, mix it 50/50 with grain fuel ... and you now get to claim that the land barge goes 16 miles on only 1/2 a gallon of gas, because you don't count the alcohol portion. Thus, if alcohol fuel didn't get worse mpg, you'd get to claim the land barge got a full 32mpg. But with less energy per (one half) gallon ... you only end up going maybe 28mpg. Those aren't the exact ratio/mixtures ... but you get the point ... your lobbyists .... hard at work ... pulling the wool over the eyes of stupid people every where.

ound:

.

 

Ignorance is bliss. But, please read up on it: www.butanol.com ...

 

Most gas has some ethanol depending on time of year and Toyota knows this. In the manual it is talking about non mainstream gas, like E85. Obviously the car is not designed to take it and I agree with the above about waiting until others have done it for years.

E85 is not very impressive anyway. Environmental impacts aside yes it is cheaper but even in cars factory built to take it (as many domestics are) the drop in MPG is so substantial vs normal gasoline as to be almost totally (if not totally) a wash.

Doing it with a Prius is not great. This is the first thread I've read about it, in fact.

 

The modern ethanol industry started in the 70's (may want to Google, click news, click archive, source Time or NYT).

I'm cool with crop waste, lawn clippings, etc. for biofuel use, but mostly corn is being grown as a dedicated fuel crop. It would be ironic if the US has to take counterinsurgency action to prevent the Taliban from controlling yet another country because corn-based ethanol drove up food prices and brought instability. It's all profit if you are Archer-Daniels Midland.

______________________________

Quietly, but very soon, the EPA is going to allow the ethanol content to be increased from E10 to E15...see Older vehicles can safely use E15, RFA-backed study finds - Oil & Gas Journal . I'm still skeptical older cars will not have fuel lines eaten/corroded away faster. Just Google boats and lawn equipment with E15 - they HAVE had problems with E10. Expect threads here in the next winter or two on worst MPG ever.

In other words, a leading ethanol state has conceded their state vehicles cost more running E85 than fuel with a higher gas content!

The ethanol industry is losing money, even with government help, yet is trying to sneak E15 on us - another bailout like the banks, GM, and Chrysler.

The original use of E10 was a replacement for MTBE to cut down on urban smog, but even that reason is questionable. The automotive computer tech the last ten years will keep this generation of cars from going as bad as previous clunkers.

 

Per bushel of corn or pound of starch, you get less butanol than you would get ethanol. So with the ethanol process yielding less energy out than in, with butanol it's even more negative.

 

As I understand corn farming (I just drive by corn fields, I am not an expert) there are three big varieties: Sweet corn feeds humans, popcorn is a snack, and field corn feeds livestock. All the corn used for ethanol is field corn, coming out of livestock feed, so it only indirectly feeds humans.

If you wanted to feed humans, raising more sweet corn would be step one.


Maize - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The field corn is called dent corn. Sweet corn isn't the only corn you eat...it's the corn you eat as corn (on the cob, niblets, etc).

Dent corn is the stuff that goes into ethanol, corn syrup, corn starch, corn oil, corn meal, animal feed, etc.

 

And I'm getting tired of the argument that we could be using the corn to feed the hungry. People (and animals) can't survive on corn. The funny part is when they fatten up the feed lot cattle on corn the ethanol leftovers are better for them, but even that can't be fed to them for more than a few weeks because they die from it.

Whether or not I/we like/dislike ethanol. The facts is the facts!

If you get a chance watch the PBS show wherein two city slickers "rent" some corn growing land and go through the year long process of planting, growing, and harvesting corn. Then follow what happens to the crop. They grew "dent corn" from above. It was inedible. It made corn syrup (used in food processing - sodas etc etc) ethanol, then cattle feed. Best quote of the show - "hey dude, our weeds are weed!" (hemp).