Scanner survey

I wasn't clear about "codes". I meant the OBD Tx and Rx frames not the DTCs.

Bob Wilson

 

I think I have enough data points to support this table:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4	Column 5	Column 6	Column 7	Column 8	Column 9	Column 10	Column 11	Column 12	Column 13	Column 14
0	Scanner	codes	data	$$	opinion
1	Auto Enginuity	Powertrain	ABS	Battery	Hybrid ECU	Airbag	EMPS (power steering)	no subcodes	marginal	$400	requires laptop	poor technical support	NHW11 and NHW20	ZVW30 is promised Fall 2010
2	Graham Miniscanner	Engine	Battery	Hybrid ECU	no subcodes	~50 usable	no longer for sale	solid part	NHW11 only
3	generic scanners	Powertrain(?)	no others	emissions	$50-250	no Prius specific support
4	OBD switches	two-code flash	no data	$15-25	limited to two-code values

Generic scanners from Sears, O'Reily, and Harbor Freight.

Auto Enginuity has the most potential since it is still in production and sales. However, they are after a mass market and apparently took the Toyota code definitions and tried to apply them to their generic code reader algorthms. Specific problems:

• Connect - "Auto detect" induces the ABS controller to report false codes. Unfortunately, the support staff insists it works and these are legitimate codes. The workaround, use "ISO-9141" and "OBD-II" compliant. Also, the documented connection order is the inverse of what works: (1) bring-up laptop with ProLine disconnected from car; (2) with car off, connect ProLine connector; (3) wait for software to ask for car to be enabled; (4) turn car to either IGN or START so ECUs will report values, and; (5) use "disconnect" and "connect" to change controller.
• Data - the ones associated with emissions and engine operation are usable. However, other values range in quality from 'random numbers' having no useful value, generator (MG1) torque, to values whose sign flips back and forth to random "0" values and unrealistic outliers. Unlike the Graham Miniscanner, we can't choose any arbitrary combination of values like "MAF flow" with "MG1" values. Their support staff reports some 'channel' access limitation. Strong points, all traction battery modules can be surveyed. Dynamic data remains indeterminant.
• "Display" and "Controls" - it is laptop based and that is a little difficult to integrate with safe driving. The Palm version may be more useful.

I suspect if we can come up a layer 1/2 protocol analyzer to document the protocol failure, we may be able to break through their resistance. However, this report is based upon NHW11 data recording. We do not know if the NHW20 sufferes from the same limitations.

Graham Miniscanner remains the 'gold standard' outside of the untested Toyota Techscanner:

• Connection is always automatic - there is no option and it has yet to induce any false codes.
• Codes - it reports the top three codes from the Engine, Hybrid vehicle, and Battery ECU. No subcodes but usually the primary codes are enough to fault-isolate a problem.
• Data - It has +50 different data points that can be captured as up to six rotating elements. These can be recorded with an inter-value interval of ~145 msec per sample. However, MG1 rpm and torque, and MG2 rpm and torque, can be recorded in rare, single row, double data points if both rpm and torque are requested in the six values. Race conditions have to be removed during data analysis.
• "Display" and "Controls" - up to four data values can be monitored at one time. The four buttons on top are 'modal' so it takes a while to figure out how to change the displays and values. Turning off the car saves the configuration.

I have two Graham scanners available for rental for vehicle rebuilding and repair. They are so useful that I loan them to those with 'project' cars. I also monitor the Prius forums and when someone is selling their NHTW11, I offer to buy their Graham scanner instead of letting it possibly be lost. Sad to say, the Auto Enginuity has yet to replace the Graham Miniscanner. It augments but the poor quality of Auto Enginuity NHW11 data makes it come in second to the Graham Miniscanner.

Generic scanners, I tested three models and found none of them really useful for the NHW11:

• Connection - if they do not handle ISO-9141, don't bother.
• Codes - As for reading the vehicle codes and those from the ECUs, I don't see them as useful. They don't even recognize the different ECUs, much less any sub-codes.
• Data - You can get some 'freeze frame' data but they are all focused on emissions testing, not engineering analysis.
• Display and Controls - simple enough, a couple of buttons but without engineering data, not terribly useful.

OBD connector with two, push button switches can cause the various ECUs to flash the two-code versions on the indicator lights. The maintenance manual discusses some controllers needing a LED with current limiting resistor being used to read the flashed codes. But this is a do-it-yourself project:

• Connection - there are two pins that are tied to ground to start the flashing.
• Codes - only the last two digits of the four digit codes are reported. You need the maintenance manual to find out which ones are reported and it does not cover all primary codes. No sub-codes.
• Data - codes only, no engineering data.
• Display and Controls - two push button switches, one to start the code flashing and the second to clear the codes.

Parts cost less than $15 and can be assembled at home. However, it have limited utility except to read out the vehicle error codes. Still, the price is right if you already have the $100-300 maintenance manuals.

Bob Wilson

 

The T605:

I don't remember seeing that one in my survey. The NHW11 Prius is ISO-9141, KWP2000, which is not CAN bus. The NHW11 uses both the K and L lines and asserting a signal on CAN-lo, pin 14, can induce false codes.

I'm sending a note to the seller asking what return policy if it does not work with our Prius, NHW11 and ZVW30. I'm curious and can 'eat' the shipping. But my curiosity has $$ limits.

OK: I see the 30 day return policy. I can afford to test it. Ordering one now.

LATE THOUGHT: Perhaps we can do a joint testing deal.

No need, I'll test it and then either return it or make it available at cost.

User "vicent1449p" is in Singapore and the seller is in Shanghai and he is skilled with the scangauge and NHW11 Prius. Perhaps someone might send him say $100 as deposit on a 'tested T605.' If the unit works with multiple codes from HV, engine and battery ECU, forward the balance and shipping plus 'dinner' or a nice beverage 'thank you.'

If "vicent1449p" is unwilling to test the unit, I am with the same terms. I enjoy the prospect of testing but the return policy is key to me being willing to risk $200. But my 'threshold' is $100 and if it works, I would be happy to send it on for the balance. Understand, I have an inventory of Graham scanners and Auto Enginuity so it would have to be extraordinary to join my inventory. But over $100 is a bit too much to risk on an unknown scanner.

Bob Wilson

 

On order, hasn't arrived.

Bob Wilson

 

The T605 arrived and I'll start testing this morning. Initial impression, the manual needs some work:

• extra cable 25 pin D to 9 pin D - probably used for software updates but this may preclude being able to log data during a drive
• 9 V battery compartment - no battery included or instructions about the battery
• Some English improvements would help (I'll send some suggestions)

I'll send a note and ask if I need to update the software before beginning testing. More later.

Bob Wilson

 

It is Chinese and unless the software upgrade does something remarkable ... no. It doesn't work with either our NHW11 nor my wife's ZVW30. I am about to return it.

I have a special OBD pig-tail that allows me to monitor the ISO-9141, K and L lines. The T605 shows ~5 V, less than half the voltage of the CEN-TECH at ~13 V, a working scanner. However, the software version is V1.0 which is another problem.

There is a new version of the control software dated July 14. But the software update cable has a 9-pin, female connector and none of my computers have a 9-pin socket. I found a USB-to-9 pin adapter but it is $37 and I would only use it for the upgrade. No, this doesn't make sense.

Bob Wilson

 

Please understand they need a chance to improve the product but this is why I'm returning it:

I'm waiting on instructions on how to ship it back. If someone else wants to test it, $200 and it is yours but no return.

Bob Wilson

 

I have a USB-to-serial that uses a DIN connector. So yesterday I bought an 8-pin DIN connector and a 9-pin D connector. But when I took the 8-pin DIN apart to solder the wires I realized this was not a good use of my time.

Even after soldering the adapter cable I would still be faced with other layer 1 problems, the electrical signal levels. Standard RS-232 uses +/- 12 V whereas the Mac world uses lower voltages. I have had to put in pull-up resistors and suddenly I'm looking at hours of labor to resolve something that really isn't my problem.

I mentioned the OBD connector problem and this image shows what I mean:

• Auto Enginuity - has an alignment tab for the connector
• T605 - no alignment tab so wiggly pins can prevent insertion to the 'blind' access OBD connector
• OBD extension cable - has an alignment tab

I wrote more details and included them with the T605. I pointed out the Prius community needs a quality scanner and offered to test an improved version. Whether or not they take up my offer is another question. We'll see.

I don't mind being their last tester but it is also unfair to have me pay $200 for that privilage. I'll do it for free, not even a fee, but I can't afford to pay for the privilage of fixing their product.

Bob Wilson

 

Well certainly w2co and vincent1449p qualify but the other expert is good Prius friend Hobbit who I think still hangs with the CleanMPG crowd. Hobbit recently posted something indicating he'd spoken with the ScanGauge development folks.

To address your questions, I have an NHW11 and ZVW30 which means I can test for these vehicles. I just don't have an NHW20 so I'm loath to offer any credible answers. But yes, the three of us are active and making progress but for our NHW11s.

Now I have opened the case:

That four-pin connector on the right looks like a debug/programming interface. Another photo verified they are using a PIC processor but I've not take the 'big glass' to find the exact part number.

I briefly looked at PIC debugging support and soon realized THEY PROGRAM IN ASSEMBLER! Now I like assembler, IBM mainframe and VAX instruction sets, but even my MSP430 microcontroller has a "C" language development system. I'm not a language bigot but given the paranoid assertions in some of the ScanGauge reports on their upcoming USB interface, I'm loath to go near it.

If any of the data is available, I would expect it on the 4-pin connector. However, I suspect it requires some initialization setup to go into "data dump" mode. But it never hurts to ask.

I'm already working on a box for our NHW11s that use ISO-9141 and don't want to get distracted. However, it is perfectly OK to contact ScanGauge (feel free to use my photo) and ask if this interface could be used to read out the data for recording.

This will encourage them to complete the USB interface sooner rather than later. They may get all huffy and that is good to know too (Auto Enginuity suffers the same hubris!) But it also lets them know the demand is there.

If you feel uncomfortable with approaching them, let me know and I'll add that to my list of 'interesting things to do.'

Bob Wilson