Odometer fraud on my new Certified Pre-owned Prius.

Well it's unfortunate that you're learning the hard way that not all dealerships are the same. The Prius I just got was from a nice, reputable dealership in Asheville. It actually was also where I got my first car when I was 16: a Corolla. In fact that dealership has seen a lot of business from my family because they have upfront prices, don't play the haggling game, and are very honest and flexible. Once my Corolla was declared totaled, my next car was from a Toyota dealership around Atlanta. With that dealership, I had to do the usual haggle game (like when the salesman says he needs to talk with the manager to get a really good deal: ppaalleeese!). I thought I had gotten a good price, but later learned that I should have just walked off the lot and go get a loan somewhere else (they really got me with their financing....I could have paid cash, but being young, I was advised to get a loan to help my credit history). Later on, I bought a townhouse in another area of Atlanta, and started getting my Toyota serviced at a different Toyota dealership. Since I hadn't bought a car there, I realized they would really try to dime me in service charges: trying to charge me $90 for a cabin air filter.

So from your other thread, "Okay, don't be mad..." I'm assuming this is the same gen II Prius that are in the photos? Looks like they did a nice job cleaning her up, and it looks like you had lust in your eyes when you were at the dealership Unfortunately, a poster on the wall that says "certified Toyota" doesn't have any worth. Did you get a carfax on the car before buying it? If you did, then I'm sure you can go back to the dealer and talk with them directly. If you didn't, and are only finding out about the car's history now, then I'd try seeing if you can get more info about the car's history. Who is your loan with? I would try to see if you can see a copy of the car's title to find out who the previous owners were.

The main thing is that you should weigh the worth of things and figure if it's worth the fight. How many miles were on your previous Gen III Prius? Look at the Kelly Blue Book value of that and then look up the value of your used Gen II Prius. What are the dates of the other instances of the miles reading 80k+? If it's just 09, I would assume the car has 90K on it: so figure that for the BB value. Next, figure out what your loan amount is and you'll see how bad the damage is: just from the little info I've read, it sounds like the dealership made a pretty penny off of you.....trading in a new car and still financing a used car for $220/month. Is that a 3 year loan? That means you bought the car for $8K after trade in with a new Prius! Maybe if you can prove the odometer tampering, you can look up your state's lemon laws. If it's obvious that this is a lemon, then you've got leverage to see if you can return the car and get out of this loan. The dealership would rather work with you rather then get reported.

 

Odometer tampering is a crime. If you have good reason to suspect it, report it to whatever agency handles consumer protection issues in your state, likely a section of the State Attorney General's office.

If you bought it from the same dealership that first sold it and performed much of the service, they should have known it and will have a more difficult time with plausible deniability than would an ordinary sleazy used car lot.

PS -- be sure to get hardcopies of any online records before reporting this. You don't want someone to 'correct some errors' behind your back.

 

Then I'd definitely first go to kelly blue book's site first....look up the value of your Gen III Prius that you traded. Next, we've got to figure out the real worth of your current car. I realize you're more in love with this car for whatever emotional reasons (the color, the specific layout, whatever)....but dealers can smell that and some will try to swindle you. You should step back and figure out real numbers now. I realize you didn't like the Gen III car as much, but at least from what I've gathered, it was worth more then what they gave you for it (especially if this car is a lemon). If the regional Toyota branch is not helpful, then report your particular dealership to your county's DOT: that's where the title is registered and they usually handle cases of sellers tampering with odometers.

So what are the dates that the car is logged with 80k+ miles? If it's been reading that for awhile, then I would print out all that you see on Toyotaownersclub. The car has at least 90K on it if the odometer has been tampered with. Look up the Kelly blue book on that. Then go to your loan officer and tell them you're mailing/faxing them copies of all that you've found (the fishy history of the car, the value of your trade in, and the value of the car you have). They might be willing to take care of your dealership, if your dealership wants to keep the "Toyota Certified" name. If it's anything like what it is in my area: I notice all rebates/offers/loans are made through a regional division (for here it's Toyota Southeast). Since they're the ones loaning the money to you, they're more likely to want to hear about a shady dealership they're dealing with. See what they say....if they're not helpful, then I'd start looking up lemon laws for your state.

 

You have them cold on FRAUD, don't let it lay. Find out how you get the current mileage certified so at that point it is locked in and you can continue driving it. I would imagine that the State Agency would be very interested in odometer turnback. Get your guns loaded first w/ certified paperwork and then tell them what you are prepared to do, in steps. Don't unload the whole shotgun on them at once. It is very possible that you could get that car for free! unlikely, but conceivable. They have thier reputation to protect, and right now it's hanging by a thread. Consult a lawer, it cost nothing just to talk to one. Good Luck. P.S. They may have cheated hundreds of customers before, we don't know. But, this time they got caught! Imagine thier stupidity by leaving repair paperwork in the car!

 

Naturally!

 

What has apparently happened here has no relationship at all to lemon laws. If the odometer was tampered with and the car was sold as having fewer miles than it actually had, then it was fraud, not a lemon law issue.

If the OP can establish with a reasonable degree of certainty the difference in actual mileage vs odometer mileage when he bought the car, it shouldn't be too hard to get the dealer to cough-up the difference in value between KBB actual miles vs odometer miles by going to Toyota America HQ

As another poster said, get hard copies of everything in case the dealer or his connections get into the Toyota database and try to cover things up.

I'm sure one of the usual dealership apologists will be along shortly to tell you that the dealer is only trying to make a living and it's his god given right to fleece the customer in anyway the dealer can. Don't be offended by that, just accept it as insight to how the average dealer works.


There are honest dealerships out there, if you do find one treasure them.

 

OK, I'm confused. So were your parents involved with this transaction? Is it just your name on the loan? So your parents are keeping the model III, and they traded in their sandy beach one? If your folks are involved, I would have thought they'd be more concerned about your credit history....especially since it's new and you're already racking up loans. Look up the kelly blue book for your current car, and the sandy beach car that you traded. It seems like your dealership is really fishy if they didn't give you anything in trade in (and they're selling the car for above blue book: which you can look that up on kelly blue book too). But keep in mind that dealerships will always have their own asking price: kelly blue book is good because you can find the actual invoice price: that's the real price that the car is worth and then the dealership will try to charge above that for their profit.

Anyways, what should be done about haggling before you take the car off the lot is a different topic! Blue book your current Prius, blue book the car you traded, print out the car's service records, then take this to the regional Toyota office. If they're not helpful, report your dealership to your county's DOT. They're usually supposed to handle odometer tampering.

 

If there's proof that the odometer was tampered with, then I agree it's fraud. If there isn't proof, then this could be a lemon issue due to the high mileage used Prius being overvalued over a trade in new Prius.

I'm new to this forum....I hope that is not the case! There is some hierarchy here. The regional Toyota office should be concerned with all their dealerships. If it is proven that this dealer is either commiting fraud or over valueing their used cars, Toyota should hold them accountable.

 

I'm still confused. Who is Brad and why is he cosigning your dad's loan? I'm also not sure where you're getting these values. Just on a whim, I looked up a 90,000k 2007 Prius on kelly blue book. The value of it, excellent condition, is $13,805 in my area (and whatever options). What was the actual assigned value of the car that the dealer was giving you with this trade in? While I appreciate that it seems as though you're getting low payments, it still looks like a huge loan amount.....either it's a big interest rate, or you didn't get anything in trade in. I'd talk with your dad about that issue: it's his credit.

The main thing you should do is configure your trade in car at kelly blue book and figure it's worth as a trade in:

Used 2010 Toyota Prius - Select Trim - Kelley Blue Book

Next, here is what a 2007 Prius usually goes for at the dealer:
2007 Toyota Prius - Select A Trim - Kelley Blue Book

You can see what the value of the car should be and see if it gells with what the loan's principle is for. If the regional Toyota office has some believable excuse for the odometer mismatch (if it seems genuine to you), then you can at least voice a complaint about the car's value....they might be willing to rework the loan. If everything still seems fishy, then I'd go to your DOT about odometer fraud.

 

It's certainly possible that odometer fraud has been committed. However I don't see the point of the dealer making an odometer change from ~90K miles to ~72K miles. According to kbb.com, the suggested retail price of a 2007 with 72K miles in the Chicago area is $15K. Compare to the same model year, 90K miles, at $13.8K. So, the difference in value is only $1.2K.

If the dealer was going to commit fraud then it would make more sense to install an odometer with a reading of 40-45K miles. 45K would be average miles for a 2007 model year vehicle. A 2007 Prius with that odometer reading would have a value of $16.9K.

If the sales price of the 2007 was $13.5K, then it's not obvious that you suffered much of a loss on the sale due to this alleged fraud. Perhaps $300 according to kbb.com.

The place where you took a huge loss was on deciding to trade in your new 2010 to the dealer after such a short ownership period. I hope that you will not repeat that mistake, if you desire to conserve your financial resources.

 

All this talk about value is meaningless and detailing the number of vehicles is confusing. If the car is in your Fathers name HE is the injured party, the dealership will just soft pedal you, cry ignorance and blame the previous owner. Get all the facts up front! DO NOT again DO NOT go running to the dealer first thing Monday morning. Keep them ignorant as long as possible. Believe me they are not just going to make everything good for you because they are real mench. They are vultures. At some point later your Father may wish to have a professional speak to the dealership. The real question is what is a good and fair settlement??? Only people in the field can determine this.
Its possible that they are a totally innocent party but you or your Father are not qualified to prove this, unless your Father happens to be a Lawer. :cheer2: